APA regional decision, What's the call?

dabarbr · Mar 29, 2015

Not too long ago I was watching an APA match between a couple of low level players. Winner of the match goes to Vegas for the National singles in their level group.
It was a match with two women and one is a skill level three and the other is a skill level two. The three has to win three games and the two goes to two games. The score is hill/hill meaning they each need one more win.

The skill level three is at the table and is on the eight ball but she is hooked and decides to kick at the eight to the pocket that she marked. She does hit the eight ball, doesn't make it, but then scratches.

The level two players picks up the cue ball lines up for a shot on her remaining ball before the eight. She shoots and misses. The level three then says she is taking a bathroom break. While she is gone the level two player is informed by spectators that level three scratched and lost the game.

Understanding that both players are under pressure and probably unsure of what happened. When the level three returned from her break the level two called for the tournament director to sort things out.
When he came over and was informed of what happened, he asked the lever three if she had scratched and she confirmed that indeed scratch. He thought about it for a bit and then made the decision for them to play the game over. Me, not being involved, kept quiet. Was that the right call? Would you have said something?

rjb1168 · Mar 29, 2015

Wow, scratch on eight ball is a clear loss Period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, I would have said something.

KRJ · Mar 29, 2015

How can you play a game over that you already lost, and quite fairly. I mean, I can't believe nobody on the "winners' side walked over to congratulate her on her win so she would know no need to keep shooting.

kaznj · Mar 29, 2015

The fact that the two took the ball and attempted a shot is immaterial. The game was over when the three scratched on the eight.
Where was the captain? Nobody said game and match over? I don't blame the two. She is a two. She is a beginner, hence a level two.

Rain-Man · Mar 29, 2015

Game was over as soon as the player on the 8 scratched.

Ida said something.

justadub · Mar 29, 2015

kaznj said:
The fact that the two took the ball and attempted a shot is immaterial. The game was over when the three scratched on the eight.
Where was the captain? Nobody said game and match over? I don't blame the two. She is a two. She is a beginner, hence a level two.

The OP indicates this was a singles qualifier, therefore no "team captain".

I think that I'm in the camp that the game ended when the scratch occurred.

Dockter · Mar 29, 2015

Do most places still play scratch on the 8 is a loss or is this an apa thing? Also, wouldn't this be considered a foul ( yes a loss of game foul ) but none the less a foul so if the other player didn't call it and took the shot it therefore negates the foul? I'm more than likely wrong just curious.

Cory in DC · Mar 29, 2015

justadub said:
The OP indicates this was a singles qualifier, therefore no "team captain".

I think that I'm in the camp that the game ended when the scratch occurred.

Even so, in the finals you would expect a friend or someone to be around. Since the match is over the moment the scratch occurred, any and every one could say "Hey, you won, congrats!" Even if it weren't hill-hill, a spectator should still be able say "You won that game, nice job!" because there's no game underway. But in this case, it's even more clear.

The TD made the wrong call.

Cory

Celophanewrap · Mar 29, 2015

I believe in the APA if you scratch on the 8 ball it's a loss. As soon as the cue fell into the pocket the game was over. The s/l 2 was pretty much practicing.
If I knew the players or the TD, maybe I would have said something, or maybe if another tournament official asked me or an otherwise interested party but other than that probably not. The tournament director should probably be kicked in the balls for such a stupid call.

rjb1168 · Mar 29, 2015

Dockter said:
Do most places still play scratch on the 8 is a loss or is this an apa thing? Also, wouldn't this be considered a foul ( yes a loss of game foul ) but none the less a foul so if the other player didn't call it and took the shot it therefore negates the foul? I'm more than likely wrong just curious.

That's how it is here in the Pocono Mountains of Pa.
Scratch on 8, you just lost.

hang-the-9 · Mar 29, 2015

I disagree that it should have been a loss. Same thing as with a foul, if a player fouls you need to call it then, not a shot after. The other player continued the game, therefore the bad hit is no longer in question.

Replaying the game was a good call, the players needed to know the rules when this happened the first time, beginners or not. You don't go into a major tournament and not know the rules.

I don't like the rule where if the 8 ball does not drop and you scratch it's a loss. Makes it too easy to win on a hook if someone is on the 8. Not quite like where people play behind the line on fouls and they make you kick at a ball that's also behind the line instead of spotting it, but close to the same idea.

ctyhntr · Mar 29, 2015

For reference, here are APA rules for 8 and 9-ball.
http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf

I agree with others, SL2 should've been awarded the game.

1. According to rule 10.4, scratching on the 8-ball is loss of game.
2. SL2 called for the Tournament Director, and SL3 admitted she scratched.
3. Unless there are other rules that can be cited, the referee should have awarded the game to SL2 based on rule 10.4.

This was mistake upon mistake. I agree it was a bad call by the TD. Is the TD also the league director? Maybe the SL2 to the league director. What APA league did this occur?

Cory in DC · Mar 29, 2015

hang-the-9 said:
I disagree that it should have been a loss. Same thing as with a foul, if a player fouls you need to call it then, not a shot after. The other player continued the game, therefore the bad hit is no longer in question.

Replaying the game was a good call, the players needed to know the rules when this happened the first time, beginners or not. You don't go into a major tournament and not know the rules.

I'd agree with you in all cases but this one. Here, there is no "shot after" because the game and match were over. As someone wrote above, from the time the scratch occurred forward, it was all just practice.

hang-the-9 · Mar 29, 2015

Cory in DC said:
I'd agree with you in all cases but this one. Here, there is no "shot after" because the game and match were over. As someone wrote above, from the time the scratch occurred forward, it was all just practice.

If you can't back track on a ball in hand on a foul, why on this? It's not like the game is over because physically they can't play like they scratched and the 8 ball disappeared.

It's only over because of the rule of a scratch on the 8. And you get ball in hand only because of the rule of ball in hand on a scratch. If you can't back track on the ball in hand, why can you on the loss? They are both the same foul, just with different results. There are clear rules (at least outside of the APA) that if you don't call a foul when it happens, it did not happen or more correctly is forgiven. What happened was a foul, the result of that fouls should be separate from that. A foul with ball in hand, a foul with a loss, both fouls. Both should logically have the same result if you don't call it.

If there not a separate rule where you can't keep playing after a non-called loss then I can see the distinction. What if this happened after the match? Or after the game was over not during a break?

Plus, the players did not even call this, the spectators did. Taking the immediate and irreversible loss of game out of the equation, the fact that someone outside of the game pointed out a foul is another good reason to call a replay. I actually am thinking that this is why the ref called a replay of game. Outside interference is not allowed.

What if Mika was about to shoot the 5 at the US Open and someone yelled out from the crowd "you're on the 4!"? I am pretty sure that under the rules, the result of the shot would be what would have happened if the outside interference did not take place, he was about to shoot the 5, and either the game would be replayed or he would be penalized like he DID shoot that 5.

Dockter · Mar 29, 2015

hang-the-9 said:
If you can't back track on a ball in hand on a foul, why on this? It's not like the game is over because physically they can't play like they scratched and the 8 ball disappeared.

It's only over because of the rule of a scratch on the 8. And you get ball in hand only because of the rule of ball in hand on a scratch. If you can't back track on the ball in hand, why can you on the loss? They are both the same foul, just with different results. There are clear rules (at least outside of the APA) that if you don't call a foul when it happens, it did not happen or more correctly is forgiven. What happened was a foul, the result of that fouls should be separate from that. A foul with ball in hand, a foul with a loss, both fouls. Both should logically have the same result if you don't call it.

If there not a separate rule where you can't keep playing after a non-called loss then I can see the distinction. What if this happened after the match? Or after the game was over not during a break?

Plus, the players did not even call this, the spectators did. Taking the immediate and irreversible loss of game out of the equation, the fact that someone outside of the game pointed out a foul is another good reason to call a replay. I actually am thinking that this is why the ref called a replay of game. Outside interference is not allowed.

What if Mika was about to shoot the 5 at the US Open and someone yelled out from the crowd "you're on the 4!"? I am pretty sure that under the rules, the result of the shot would be what would have happened if the outside interference did not take place, he was about to shoot the 5, and either the game would be replayed or he would be penalized like he DID shoot that 5.

I'm with you but I've never played APA so don't know how it works. To me it's like any other foul and if the other player doesn't call it then it negates after the following shot.

cardiac kid · Mar 29, 2015

dabarbr said:
Not too long ago I was watching an APA match between a couple of low level players. Winner of the match goes to Vegas for the National singles in their level group.
It was a match with two women and one is a skill level three and the other is a skill level two. The three has to win three games and the two goes to two games. The score is hill/hill meaning they each need one more win.

The skill level three is at the table and is on the eight ball but she is hooked and decides to kick at the eight to the pocket that she marked. She does hit the eight ball, doesn't make it, but then scratches.

The level two players picks up the cue ball lines up for a shot on her remaining ball before the eight. She shoots and misses. The level three then says she is taking a bathroom break. While she is gone the level two player is informed by spectators that level three scratched and lost the game.

Understanding that both players are under pressure and probably unsure of what happened. When the level three returned from her break the level two called for the tournament director to sort things out.
When he came over and was informed of what happened, he asked the lever three if she had scratched and she confirmed that indeed scratch. He thought about it for a bit and then made the decision for them to play the game over. Me, not being involved, kept quiet. Was that the right call? Would you have said something?

Frank,

The tournament director should immediately be sanctioned by the APA for incompetence. Losing on a scratch on the 8 ball is a fundemental APA rule no different than the infamous "slop" or play what you make after the break. If the TD did know the rule, then I'd look to see if they were a friend or relation of the skill 3 player. Either way, they should be sanctioned!!!!

Lyn

ctyhntr · Mar 29, 2015

If this game was played according to World Standard Rules, the outcome could've been different. Scratching on the 8-ball alone isn't loss of game according to this BCA rule set.

http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/bca-pool.com/resource/resmgr/imported/EightBall_January2008.pdf

The OP mentioned this was APA qualifier. If we want to be sincerely helpful, then we need to use APA rule set in our review to determine if the Tournament Director made the right decision, and what recourse the SL2 has.

Dockter said:
Do most places still play scratch on the 8 is a loss or is this an apa thing? Also, wouldn't this be considered a foul ( yes a loss of game foul ) but none the less a foul so if the other player didn't call it and took the shot it therefore negates the foul? I'm more than likely wrong just curious.

cardiac kid · Mar 29, 2015

ctyhntr said:
If this game was played according to World Standard Rules, the outcome could've been different. Scratching on the 8-ball alone isn't loss of game according to this BCA rule set.

http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/bca-pool.com/resource/resmgr/imported/EightBall_January2008.pdf

The OP mentioned this was APA qualifier. If we want to be sincerely helpful, then we need to use APA rule set in our review to determine if the Tournament Director made the right decision, and what recourse the SL2 has.

Hunter,

On page 9 of the 2015 APA rule book it states in the section on "There are Various Ways to Lose"; "When playing the eight ball you scratch, you lose whether or not you pocket the eight ball". If an APA TD did NOT know this rule, they must not be an APA player! Dumbest ruling I've heard of in years!

Lyn

jcrack_corn · Mar 29, 2015

The proper ruling is to play on in the current game. There is no loss of game because the foul was not called and the next shot occured.

This is a very basic and easy ruling.

leto1776 · Mar 29, 2015

The SL2 won, even if she was too dumb to realize it. The game ended when the sl3 scratched while on the 8-ball, which is a straight up loss according to the rule book. Not a foul, but a straight up loss. The book is very clear on this one.

Guys who don't play APA, and don't understand the rules, really shouldn't be commenting.

APA regional decision, What's the call?

AzB Silver Member

AzB Gold Member

Support UKRAINE

AzB Silver Member

Team Deplorable

Rattling corners nightly

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

Call me Grace

AzB Gold Member

AzB Silver Member

RIP Kelly

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

Super Senior Member

RIP Kelly

Super Senior Member

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member