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dr_dave
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08-26-2015, 07:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by (((Satori))) View Post
Dr. Dave,

Is it possible that the second balls go toward the side pockets better and the 1 ball heads toward the corner better when the cue ball comes in off of a trajectory?
With a powerful break (fast CB speed), the CB doesn't need to hit the 1 ball very much above center to get CB to hop, so the "trajectory" is always very flat (unless one elevates the cue more than one should). I can't imagine that a very slight change in CB trajectory could make that much difference in how the 1 ball and 2nd-row balls move (although, I haven't tested this carefully). I think the motion of these balls is affected mostly by the direction the CB comes into the rack (which can easily be changed) and the squareness of the hit.

Regards,
Dave
  
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08-26-2015, 07:03 AM

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Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
CB hop is not something one should try to create
I agree - its only possible benefit is to avoid getting kicked around occasionally, and that's a bad trade off with the power loss. The energy it takes to lift the CB into the air could be moving more OBs greater distances, resulting in more balls made.

pj
chgo
  
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Masayoshi
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08-26-2015, 07:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I agree - its only possible benefit is to avoid getting kicked around occasionally, and that's a bad trade off with the power loss. The energy it takes to lift the CB into the air could be moving more OBs greater distances, resulting in more balls made.

pj
chgo

It's not a bad tradeoff if you are breaking at a target speed that is well within your range.
  
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08-26-2015, 07:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
CB hop is not something one should try to create (e.g., by elevating the cue even more than normal). However, with a well-struck break (i.e., a square hit with significant speed), it is difficult to avoid the hop. For a lot more information on this topic, including demonstrations, see the CB hop and squat on the break resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave
So the best 9ball and 10ball breaker on the planet is wrong...


-H

Disclaimer:
I'm really a sh!t pool player and you probably shouldn't listen to any advice I may give.
  
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(((Satori)))
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08-26-2015, 07:43 AM

Check this out. I went to youtube to see the trajectory of Shanes cueball and I found something even better. https://youtu.be/28ooWQlf7VI

I guess he does feel as if the hop is pretty important.
  
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08-26-2015, 07:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by (((Satori))) View Post
Check this out. I went to youtube to see the trajectory of Shanes cueball and I found something even better. https://youtu.be/28ooWQlf7VI

I guess he does feel as if the hop is pretty important.
That's an interesting video.

What's most interesting is that the video editors picked a few of the most lousy Shane breaks you could ever see to use as visual examples, lol.
  
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(((Satori)))
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08-26-2015, 08:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
With a powerful break (fast CB speed), the CB doesn't need to hit the 1 ball very much above center to get CB to hop, so the "trajectory" is always very flat (unless one elevates the cue more than one should). I can't imagine that a very slight change in CB trajectory could make that much difference in how the 1 ball and 2nd-row balls move (although, I haven't tested this carefully). I think the motion of these balls is affected mostly by the direction the CB comes into the rack (which can easily be changed) and the squareness of the hit.

Regards,
Dave
You are probably right but I am going to experiment with the trajectory coming into the rack to see what difference it makes.

That is the only factor that I can see that would be hard for someone else to replicate, giving him the edge. The placement of the cueball, hitting them square, the speed of the break all seem like they can be easily replicated which made me wonder if the difference in his success lied in the trajectory.
  
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08-26-2015, 08:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon of Sin View Post
So the best 9ball and 10ball breaker on the planet is wrong...
That isn't at all what he said.

He said that one shouldn't try to create it artificially by striking down into the cueball. Hitting down into the cueball more than necessary is a great way to lose energy and control of the cueball.

In fact, Dr. Dave goes on to say that it is difficult to avoid the hop. This means that the hop is very likely a byproduct of many great breaks...Shane's included.

Shane may well be wrong about the hop being as important as he thinks it is...that doesn't change his results. We all know that Shane has put in tremendous amounts of work on his break and if he says that his best results are when he gets significant hop, I don't think any reasonable person would argue with him.

That said, Dr. Dave has put in tremendous amounts of work in the physics of pool and for someone to argue against that is shortsighted at best.
  
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08-26-2015, 08:42 AM

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Originally Posted by Apocalypse2015 View Post
I'll just watch this over and over again. Props to Eagletrickshots2 for the vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxZP-JS4g5s

I watched the vid(thanks) several times...


Wonder how many bloody knuckles were suffered to get that timing right?

Amazing timing to strike cb on a shallow up angle just before tip angles back down...to fly cb to head ball...appears cb strikes head ball on the way down, at a very shallow angle, bouncing off slate after collision...hard to tell, could be wrong...again..

Wonder if this is why the bridge finger loop is just above cushion level, and somewhat close to cushion to promote a slight cue tip up angle as the rear portion of the shaft briefly scrapes the rail just before re-raising back hand to avoid smashing his fingers into rail, sending the tip back down.....???

Maybe I'm not seeing what I think I'm seeing...maybe he is hitting cb down into slate....

I don't see me trying this...too much coordination involved for me, but an amazing break to watch.
  
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dr_dave
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08-26-2015, 09:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon of Sin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
CB hop is not something one should try to create (e.g., by elevating the cue even more than normal). However, with a well-struck break (i.e., a square hit with significant speed), it is difficult to avoid the hop. For a lot more information on this topic, including demonstrations, see the CB hop and squat on the break resource page.
So the best 9ball and 10ball breaker on the planet is wrong...
Sometimes pros (and grandfathers of pros) don't always explain the physics of the game totally correctly.

There is no doubt that Shane has a good break. There is also no doubt that when he hits the 1 ball squarely with fast speed (with the cue slightly elevated at impact to clear the head rail), the CB hops and squats. There is nothing on my CB hop and squat on the break resource page that is in conflict with these facts. If you haven't read the entire resource page, please do so. And if you or anybody else thinks anything is incorrect, please let me know.

Regards,
Dave
  
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dr_dave
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08-26-2015, 09:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Sometimes pros (and grandfathers of pros) don't always explain the physics of the game totally correctly.

There is no doubt that Shane has a good break. There is also no doubt that when he hits the 1 ball squarely with fast speed (with the cue slightly elevated at impact to clear the head rail), the CB hops and squats. There is nothing on my CB hop and squat on the break resource page that is in conflict with these facts. If you haven't read the entire resource page, please do so. And if you or anybody else thinks anything is incorrect, please let me know.

Regards,
Dave
PS: The CB hops when I break too. Although, if it hops too much or in the wrong direction, I know I did something wrong.
  
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Breaking Bad - 08-26-2015, 09:18 AM

IMHO, number one key for 9 and 10 ball breaking.... hit the one DEAD SQUARE..
The best breakers, Shane, Archer, Earl back in the day, hit that one top dead center
and usually the one went in the side, or wing ball goes in the corner.

I remember watching Earl playing Varner, just crushing the one dead center, cue
ball usually ended up center table, two or so balls on the break... when he hit it off
center, it was a disaster, scratching or cue ball off the table.

And of course it depends on the table!
  
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08-26-2015, 09:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Sometimes pros (and grandfathers of pros) don't always explain the physics of the game totally correctly.

There is no doubt that Shane has a good break. There is also no doubt that when he hits the 1 ball squarely with fast speed (with the cue slightly elevated at impact to clear the head rail), the CB hops and squats. There is nothing on my CB hop and squat on the break resource page that is in conflict with these facts. If you haven't read the entire resource page, please do so. And if you or anybody else thinks anything is incorrect, please let me know.

Regards,
Dave
I'm not wanting to argue. I seriously do respect your knowledge and your work you put into obtaining it. Thanks for sharing it too.

I do wonder though if it is best case scenario for the cueball to land simultaneously to contacting the 1 ball. It probably is the best way to transfer all of the power but I wonder if the balls react different when the cueball is slightly airborne still at contact?
  
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08-26-2015, 09:22 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
...its only possible benefit is to avoid getting kicked around occasionally, and that's a bad trade off with the power loss. The energy it takes to lift the CB into the air could be moving more OBs greater distances, resulting in more balls made.
Masayoshi:
It's not a bad tradeoff if you are breaking at a target speed that is well within your range.
It's a bad tradeoff - it robs the break of power at any speed, and you can prevent it without changing the speed (just change the distance a little).

pj
chgo
  
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08-26-2015, 09:24 AM

It could be that a consistent hop is the feedback he uses to know that he struck it how he wanted - speed, aim, cue elevation - but the hop itself isn't what is causing his break to be so good. The hop itself is incidental. It's an effect rather than a cause of a good break.
  
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