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ElCorazonFrio
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08-26-2015, 09:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
It's a bad tradeoff - it robs the break of power at any speed, and you can prevent it without changing the speed (just change the distance a little).

pj
chgo
It maybe robs the rack of 3-5% of the total power in the case of shane's break. I estimate that the speed he causes the cueball to move it would reach a height of 20-25 feet if thrown straight up. Given that his ball appears to pop ~6" off the table, that means that he is only 1/40th of the energy, so even if it were to pop 1ft, it would only be 5% of the energy that is lost to the hop.

There could easily be many benefits (i.e. the path of the balls) that outweigh this 3-5% loss that we see in Shane's break.

Just as a hard, poorly-aimed break will not produce results on par with a softer, well-aimed break, a hop may produce better action...despite all this lost energy you are on about.
  
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08-26-2015, 09:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCorazonFrio View Post
...a hard, poorly-aimed break will not produce results on par with a softer, well-aimed break
If the CB hops, then the head ball was hit off center like any poorly aimed break (just vertically off rather than horizontally off). If it's not good when off target horizontally, how is it good when off target vertically?

In fact, being off target vertically drives the head ball down into the slate, losing more power than being off target horizontally.

pj
chgo

Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 08-26-2015 at 09:56 AM.
  
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08-26-2015, 09:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
If the CB hops the head ball was hit off center, like any poorly aimed break (just vertically off rather than horizontally off). If it's not good when off target horizontally, how is it good when off target vertically?

In fact, being off target vertically drives the head ball down into the slate, robbing more power than being off target horizontally.

pj
chgo
Just like a cut break gets the action wanted on some 9ball breaks I am wondering if a vertical off center hit gets him the action wanted on his 10ball break
  
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08-26-2015, 10:00 AM

People talking about how the loss of power is a negative should remember that Shane probably never hits even 75% of his maximum power. I doubt a loss of 5% is an issue for him.
  
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08-26-2015, 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by (((Satori))) View Post
Just like a cut break gets the action wanted on some 9ball breaks I am wondering if a vertical off center hit gets him the action wanted on his 10ball break
I can see how hitting off center horizontally changes the direction the head ball will take (although I suspect the same thing can be accomplished by simply breaking from another spot), but I can't see any predictable benefit from hitting the head ball above center (except that it might avoid some occasional OB/CB collisions). Until I hear another advantage that's more than a wildass guess I'll keep trying to hit the head ball as square as possible.

pj
chgo
  
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08-26-2015, 10:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
If the CB hops, then the head ball was hit off center like any poorly aimed break (just vertically off rather than horizontally off). If it's not good when off target horizontally, how is it good when off target vertically?

In fact, being off target vertically drives the head ball down into the slate, losing more power than being off target horizontally.

pj
chgo
I already gave you my estimate of the amount of energy that is lost...it is only lost once, it doesn't matter that it is resolved by the head ball and the slate.

Which is it for you? It is the energy lost (relatively insignificant) or the 'poor aim' (which it isn't)?

I've told you why it might help--the cueball may indeed restrict the movement of the rest of the balls less if it is aloft than if it stays on the slate. You either need to prove this incorrect, prove that there is more energy lost than my estimate or admit that you are speaking from bias and not fact.
  
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08-26-2015, 10:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post
People talking about how the loss of power is a negative should remember that Shane probably never hits even 75% of his maximum power. I doubt a loss of 5% is an issue for him.
I question the 5% guess, but if it isn't doing anything else for him, why lose any power?

pj
chgo
  
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08-26-2015, 10:14 AM

Another question. If the cueball is coming in at a slight angle (airborne) and it hits the 1 ball full from this angle, wouldnt that hit transfer the most power? It seems if the cueball was coming in at a slight angle and hit both the 1ball and slate at the same time then this would not generate as much power because that is not a true full hit (coming in from an angle).

I hope thia makes sense.
  
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08-26-2015, 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCorazonFrio View Post
I already gave you my estimate of the amount of energy that is lost
I'd call that a wildass guess, not an estimate - but I'm willing to be convinced with some actual data.

Quote:
...it is only lost once, it doesn't matter that it is resolved by the head ball and the slate.
Driving the head ball into the slate isn't "resolving" anything - it's another separate and additional loss of power delivered into the rest of the balls.

Quote:
I've told you why it might help--the cueball may indeed restrict the movement of the rest of the balls less if it is aloft than if it stays on the slate.
How do we compare that with the movement lost from power diversion?

Quote:
You either need to prove this incorrect, prove that there is more energy lost than my estimate or admit that you are speaking from bias and not fact.
Actually, since the numerical assertion is yours, you need to prove it correct - i.e., that there is only 5% energy lost (I doubt it) and that there would be more energy lost due to occasional CB/OB collisions (I doubt it).

pj
chgo
  
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ElCorazonFrio
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08-26-2015, 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I'd call that a wildass guess, not an estimate - but I'm willing to be convinced with some actual data.


Driving the head ball into the slate isn't "resolving" anything - it's another separate and additional loss of power delivered into the rest of the balls.


How do we compare that with the movement lost from power diversion?


Actually, since the numerical assertion is yours, you need to prove it correct - i.e., that there is only 5% energy lost (I doubt it) and that there would be more energy lost due to occasional CB/OB collisions (I doubt it).

pj
chgo
The 3-5% estimate is based upon the ratio of how high the hop is versus how high a ball would fly if thrown straight up into the air based on the speed (~23mph) that the ball hits the rack. I explained that. I can direct you to the acceleration equations I used if you need them.

The energy that is lost by the head ball being driven into the slate is minimal because everything is very massive, heavy and solid...therefore creating nearly an impulse situation. You in the past have used the impulse equations for cuestick/cueball contact...this is much closer to an impulse. Because of this, the energy lost is minimal.

These are the assumptions I've made. I'm sure I've simplified it a bit, but I never claimed it was much better than an estimate. Why don't you give us your estimate and tell us what it is based upon.

As for the power diversion and the rest of the terms you've made up, I don't know...the interactions of the balls is a very complex problem with many relevant variables. All I said is that there is a chance that the cueball going aloft may give better breaks, all other things being equal...something you argue against on nothing more than a single data point of energy up not being energy in.
  
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08-26-2015, 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by (((Satori))) View Post
Another question. If the cueball is coming in at a slight angle (airborne) and it hits the 1 ball full from this angle, wouldnt that hit transfer the most power? It seems if the cueball was coming in at a slight angle and hit both the 1ball and slate at the same time then this would not generate as much power because that is not a true full hit (coming in from an angle).
That's a good point, but I don't think it makes much difference at typical CB trajectory angles coming in. The downside of hitting the 1-ball at a downward angle is that it causes the 1-ball to bounce down into the slate, which will cause a loss of energy and cause the 1-ball to hop some (more lost energy). However, I think all of this is a moot point since the CB usually bounces before reaching the 1-ball, in which case the CB might be more likely to have an upward angle if it hits the 1-ball above the equator. With an upward angle, the higher the CB hits the 1 ball, the higher it will bounce, and the less energy it will deliver to the rack of balls. In this case, the best scenario is to the have the CB land as close as possible to the 1-ball, with as few bounces as possible (ideally, just the 1 bounce off the tip).

BTW, the CB will still hop if it hits the 1-ball just as it contacts the table (because it still has an upward or downward speed component, assuming it hops on the way to the 1 ball, as it the case with a fast-speed break).

Regards,
Dave
  
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08-26-2015, 10:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I question the 5% guess, but if it isn't doing anything else for him, why lose any power?

pj
chgo
OK, but it sounds like a reasonable guess, and anyway I seriously doubt that it's more than the amount these guys intentionally take off their break. As to why, I see three possibilities:

1. The hop is not intentional, and does not help the break, it just happens, and how it hops provides feedback as to how well the cue ball was struck.
2. The hop does something that benefits the break that SVB understands but we don't, e.g., it helps the cue ball squat in the middle.
3. SVB believes it helps his break, but it really doesn't.
  
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08-26-2015, 10:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCorazonFrio View Post
The energy that is lost by the head ball being driven into the slate is minimal
That's speculative - the fact that energy is lost that way compared to a non-hopping break is not.

Quote:
Why don't you give us your estimate and tell us what it is based upon.
An off center hit on the head ball is a definite loss of power into the rack. That there may be an offsetting advantage somewhere is only speculation - and reaching in my opinion.

Quote:
All I said is that there is a chance that the cueball going aloft may give better breaks, all other things being equal...
Except that all other things are not equal - power into the rack being the most obvious.

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08-26-2015, 11:05 AM

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Originally Posted by BRussell View Post
OK, but it sounds like a reasonable guess, and anyway I seriously doubt that it's more than the amount these guys intentionally take off their break.
Taking speed off the break is done to accomplish a more accurate hit on the head ball. CB hop means that goal isn't being fully accomplished.

Quote:
As to why, I see three possibilities:

1. The hop is not intentional, and does not help the break, it just happens, and how it hops provides feedback as to how well the cue ball was struck.
2. The hop does something that benefits the break that SVB understands but we don't, e.g., it helps the cue ball squat in the middle.
3. SVB believes it helps his break, but it really doesn't.
OK, but only #2 favors a CB hop, and I'm not sacrificing power because some think Shane may know a secret that nobody else does.

pj
chgo
  
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08-26-2015, 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
It's a bad tradeoff - it robs the break of power at any speed, and you can prevent it without changing the speed (just change the distance a little).

pj
chgo
If the speed you are aiming for is well within your range as I stipulated, you can just increase your speed slightly to compensate for the loss AND still avoid getting kicked around by getting the cue ball back down table. No bad tradeoff there.
  
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