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Patrick Johnson
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08-26-2015, 07:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolmanis View Post
Show me one good pro level breaker whos cueball not jumping after break?
Give me a good reason to want it to.

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08-26-2015, 07:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsp View Post
If there is absolutely no vertical hop after impact, then the effects of any unintended spin on the CB get maximized.

Again, I think the tradeoff is a good one.
I guess I'm just lucky not to get much unwanted spin or bad kicks. To me these risks are marginal.

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08-26-2015, 07:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Give me a good reason to want it to.

pj
chgo
Would you rather have your break or SVB's break?

Yours or Archers?

Do you think that if you woke up tomorrow and had their breaks you would be able to improve upon them by eliminating the hop?

Your hangup on needing proof is illogical. In one corner we have two guys who have dedicated their lives and have the ability to play world class pool. In the other corner we have you.

Your refusal to even consider that there is something to it...whether it is a necessary byproduct or a desired effect is close-minded.
  
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Colin Colenso
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08-26-2015, 10:25 PM

This is two screenshots side by side of when the CB lands after the hop.

Note that none of the object balls have traveled into the CB zone yet. The fastest wing ball tends to be first to arrive there slightly after the second bounce, so the CB being in the air does not prevent any object balls from colliding into it.
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Colin Colenso
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08-26-2015, 10:46 PM

FWIW I would love to be able to hit flat onto the 1 ball when breaking 20+mph but it's pretty much impossible unless I use a long bridge with upward swooping draw, which deflects the CB upward a little, but unfortunately takes significant speed off the CB.

It seems SVB has an upward swoop through the CB on contact slightly above CCB to get some follow and perhaps this allows a flatter cue angle. A low squirt break cue should reduce the hopping when hitting above CCB.

He does well to get his knuckles clear of the end rail after hitting the CB.

Just some thoughts.

Colin
  
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08-27-2015, 12:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCorazonFrio View Post
Would you rather have your break or SVB's break?
Shane's without the hop.

Quote:
Do you think that if you woke up tomorrow and had their breaks you would be able to improve upon them by eliminating the hop?
Probably not - that's probably why they have the hop. And that isn't the right question - the right question (the one asked by the OP) is should I want to eliminate it?

Quote:
Your hangup on needing proof is illogical. In one corner we have two guys who have dedicated their lives and have the ability to play world class pool. In the other corner we have you.
Assuming it's intentional because it happens to a good player is illogical. In that corner we have you.

Quote:
Your refusal to even consider that there is something to it...whether it is a necessary byproduct or a desired effect is close-minded.
I've considered the supposed benefits; I just don't see any hard evidence for them. The only indisputable fact we have is loss of power - the rest is all speculative.

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08-27-2015, 02:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masayoshi View Post
...on Ko Pin Yi's break, the cue ball jumps and lands past the side pockets
That doesn't sound possible to me. Can you link a video?

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08-27-2015, 02:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
That doesn't sound possible to me. Can you link a video?

pj
chgo
I used to get the CB to land past the center line quite often when practicing my power break for 8 ball.

Though this video is a little blurry, the CB appears to be landing in this zone on my 2nd and 3rd breaks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U

Colin


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08-27-2015, 05:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Colenso View Post
I used to get the CB to land past the center line quite often when practicing my power break for 8 ball.

Though this video is a little blurry, the CB appears to be landing in this zone on my 2nd and 3rd breaks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U

Colin
That's pretty convincing. Thanks, Colin.

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08-27-2015, 08:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Shane's without the hop.


Probably not - that's probably why they have the hop. And that isn't the right question - the right question (the one asked by the OP) is should I want to eliminate it?


Assuming it's intentional because it happens to a good player is illogical. In that corner we have you.


I've considered the supposed benefits; I just don't see any hard evidence for them. The only indisputable fact we have is loss of power - the rest is all speculative.

pj
chgo
I've said that the hop is likely a byproduct. Shane's break without the hop IS NOT SHANE'S BREAK.

You said earlier that those guys are respected for their breaks because of the power...I thought it was the ability to open a rack consistently and usually making a ball. If what they do causes: 1. A good spread; 2. A ball to drop; 3. The cueball to hop, why would you want to remove #3 if it even had a chance of threatening #1 or #2?

It is likely a byproduct of how these guys break, but Shane doesn't think so, and I believe that deserves consideration.

You seem to pride yourself on your understanding of physics. Why, then, do you hate the scientific process?
  
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08-27-2015, 08:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCorazonFrio View Post
I've said that the hop is likely a byproduct. Shane's break without the hop IS NOT SHANE'S BREAK.
All good breaks that have good speed and a square hit on the 1 ball result in the CB hopping. This isn't just a Shane thing.

Regardless, as pointed out on the break CB hop and squat resource page, with a square hit at a given break speed, one should try to keep the hop as low as possible. For example, one should not add cue elevation (at tip-CB contact) to add more CB hop. And one should not use a break angle and distance that makes the CB hop higher onto the 1 ball causing the CB to hop even higher. For more info, see the resource page. Those things will hurt accuracy and consistency, and reduce breaking effectiveness (for a given cue speed).

For those who want to improve their break, the focus should not be on trying to make the CB hop. If one follows all of the recommended break technique advice and can hit the 1-ball squarely with good speed, the CB will hop (even though the hop is not really helpful).

Regards,
Dave
  
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08-27-2015, 09:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCorazonFrio View Post
[CB hop] is likely a byproduct of how these guys break, but Shane doesn't think so, and I believe that deserves consideration.
When I hear something from him other than "I don't think so" I'll listen - and then I'll compare it with the facts I know to decide how much sense it makes.

Quote:
You seem to pride yourself on your understanding of physics. Why, then, do you hate the scientific process?
Why are you so combative about a simple difference of opinion? Is this the first time anybody's disagreed with you?

Show me some "scientific process" and I'll consider it. "Shane's really good and he thinks so" isn't it.

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08-27-2015, 10:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
When I hear something from him other than "I don't think so" I'll listen - and then I'll compare it with the facts I know to decide how much sense it makes.


Why are you so combative about a simple difference of opinion? Is this the first time anybody's disagreed with you?

Show me some "scientific process" and I'll consider it. "Shane's really good and he thinks so" isn't it.

pj
chgo
The first part of the scientific process is to formulate a hypothesis that one then intends to prove or disprove.

Part of formulating a hypothesis is to consider many possibilities...which is what you won't do. You keep diving behind the 'it wastes energy' argument.

Guess what? Everybody has agreed with you, it wastes energy. I gave you an estimate of the energy it wasted and told you how I came up with it...it was easy to check for anyone with any basis of physics understanding...you simply told me I was wrong...until someone spelled it out for you.

I don't care about someone disagreeing with me. I care about the people who might read this and put any stock in your close-minded opinion.

I've never said that the hop helps. I've said it would be interesting to show whether it is:

1. A necessary byproduct of a certain type/speed of effective break
2. Not helpful, unnecessary and should be eliminated
3. Helpful for some other reason.

The reason I hate your attitude on this matter is you can't prove your position, but won't even consider any other opinion.
  
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08-27-2015, 05:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCorazonFrio View Post
The reason I hate your attitude on this matter is you can't prove your position, but won't even consider any other opinion.
You seem to think these are new ideas. We've talked about them here in one form or another for years, and there still is nothing but idle speculation about the supposed benefits of purposely hopping the CB.

The fact that I have an opinion about it doesn't mean I "won't consider" other possibilities - it means I've considered it many times and have a considered opinion about it.

If you have some actual evidence or even a theory I haven't already heard, I'm all ears - and my opinion is open to change. Until then there's nothing new to consider. Sorry you feel bad about it.

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08-27-2015, 07:58 PM

To be clear... the hop I was specifically asking about was the hop going into the rack... hitting the 1 ball from a different angle.

I was wondering if that is what sets a great 10 ball break apart. It is the only factor that seems like it would take a lot of practice to get right.

The speed can be easily matched. The cueball placement can be easily matched.(I understand starting in the center and moving toward the rail accordingly to get the second ball action toward the side) Hitting the 1 ball square can be easily matched. The hop into the rack is not so easy. Perhaps attacking the 1 from a slightly different angle is the secret to the spread of the object balls.

The hop of the cueball after the break... beyond the side pockets is a benefit too preventing a scratch in the side... but Im more interested in sending the second balls in the side and just as importantly... maybe more importantly... moving the 1 towards the corner consistently. When Shanes 10 ball break is really "on" that is what I see.

Last edited by (((Satori))); 08-27-2015 at 08:04 PM.
  
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