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Would consider this cheating by the tournament director?
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Big Bad Bern
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Would consider this cheating by the tournament director? - 06-14-2016, 10:10 AM

Just wondering if you would consider this cheating or an honest mistake?
Our local VNEA league coordinator and tournament director ran a series of 32 qualifiers 8ball, race to 2, D/E where the top two finishers got a spot in a big finals tournament. The finials was 64 players with almost $6000 in prize money to be awarded everyone of the 64 players got money.
So where the issue I have is the tournament director lets call him P is in a match for 9/12th with a player we will call B. B is up 1 to 0 in the race to 2 and P is shooting. P misses his last ball and scratches leaving a fairly easy 5 ball out as B is a very good player. P (the tournament director) then proceeds to take his playing cue apart and put it in his case and sit in his chair! B gets up and starts shooting but gets tough on the 8 and misses it. P then jumps out of his chair takes his cue out of his case screws it back together and pockets the two remaining balls. B then goes to rack for the hill game and while he is the P is informed that taking his cue apart is ILLEAGAL and upon B returning from racking he tells B that what he did was ILLEAGAL claims he had no idea and says he is sorry! Then P proceeds to let B break the next game and P ends up winning the hill game and eliminating B! P goes on to finish 4th and make significantly more money.
I was playing on the next table over and was so angry watching this I started to shake, I couldnít believe P who I have known and helped for years would do this. To me its flat out cheating, even if he didnít know the rule he was informed of it and I feel that instead of apologizing he as the tournament director should have forfeited the game which would have cost him the match no just said Iím sorry. P has played for about 20 years been to the VNEA championship in Vegas between 5 and 10 times and in fact is only a week back from it this year! So I find it hard to believe he didnít know that you canít do that but even if he did he should have done what I believe is right and forfeited the game!
I spoke to P the next day and told him I think he cheated and he was a scumbag for pulling that move and he said he made an honest mistake and apologized for it so it was ok!
Further as I have known P for years we have had many discussions about running tournaments and I have voiced my opinion many times that there are 3 things a tournament director at a big event like this shouldnít do 1) you are being paid to run it and therefore should not play as it is a conflict of interest. 2) Drink while running the tournament, which he started to do as soon as the bar opened, his reasoning was I always drink while I play! 3) cheat, as a tournament director you must be beyond reproach in your actions even if it is detrimental to yourself.
What does everyone else think, please vote on the poll.
  
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With Some Formatting! - 06-14-2016, 10:18 AM

For those who were getting a headache trying to read the OP, here it is with a bit of formatting:

---

Just wondering if you would consider this cheating or an honest mistake?

Our local VNEA league coordinator and tournament director ran a series of 32 qualifiers 8ball, race to 2, D/E where the top two finishers got a spot in a big finals tournament.

The finials was 64 players with almost $6000 in prize money to be awarded everyone of the 64 players got money.

So where the issue I have is the tournament director lets call him P is in a match for 9/12th with a player we will call B. B is up 1 to 0 in the race to 2 and P is shooting. P misses his last ball and scratches leaving a fairly easy 5 ball out as B is a very good player. P (the tournament director) then proceeds to take his playing cue apart and put it in his case and sit in his chair! B gets up and starts shooting but gets tough on the 8 and misses it. P then jumps out of his chair takes his cue out of his case screws it back together and pockets the two remaining balls.

B then goes to rack for the hill game and while he is the P is informed that taking his cue apart is ILLEAGAL and upon B returning from racking he tells B that what he did was ILLEAGAL claims he had no idea and says he is sorry! Then P proceeds to let B break the next game and P ends up winning the hill game and eliminating B! P goes on to finish 4th and make significantly more money.

I was playing on the next table over and was so angry watching this I started to shake, I couldnít believe P who I have known and helped for years would do this.

To me its flat out cheating, even if he didnít know the rule he was informed of it and I feel that instead of apologizing he as the tournament director should have forfeited the game which would have cost him the match no just said Iím sorry. P has played for about 20 years been to the VNEA championship in Vegas between 5 and 10 times and in fact is only a week back from it this year! So I find it hard to believe he didnít know that you canít do that but even if he did he should have done what I believe is right and forfeited the game!

I spoke to P the next day and told him I think he cheated and he was a scumbag for pulling that move and he said he made an honest mistake and apologized for it so it was ok!

Further as I have known P for years we have had many discussions about running tournaments and I have voiced my opinion many times that there are 3 things a tournament director at a big event like this shouldnít do

1) you are being paid to run it and therefore should not play as it is a conflict of interest.

2) Drink while running the tournament, which he started to do as soon as the bar opened, his reasoning was I always drink while I play!

3) cheat, as a tournament director you must be beyond reproach in your actions even if it is detrimental to yourself.

What does everyone else think, please vote on the poll.


Regards,

Gideon

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06-14-2016, 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bad Bern View Post
Just wondering if you would consider this cheating or an honest mistake?
Our local VNEA league coordinator and tournament director ran a series of 32 qualifiers 8ball, race to 2, D/E where the top two finishers got a spot in a big finals tournament. The finials was 64 players with almost $6000 in prize money to be awarded everyone of the 64 players got money.
So where the issue I have is the tournament director lets call him P is in a match for 9/12th with a player we will call B. B is up 1 to 0 in the race to 2 and P is shooting. P misses his last ball and scratches leaving a fairly easy 5 ball out as B is a very good player. P (the tournament director) then proceeds to take his playing cue apart and put it in his case and sit in his chair! B gets up and starts shooting but gets tough on the 8 and misses it. P then jumps out of his chair takes his cue out of his case screws it back together and pockets the two remaining balls. B then goes to rack for the hill game and while he is the P is informed that taking his cue apart is ILLEAGAL and upon B returning from racking he tells B that what he did was ILLEAGAL claims he had no idea and says he is sorry! Then P proceeds to let B break the next game and P ends up winning the hill game and eliminating B! P goes on to finish 4th and make significantly more money.
I was playing on the next table over and was so angry watching this I started to shake, I couldn’t believe P who I have known and helped for years would do this. To me its flat out cheating, even if he didn’t know the rule he was informed of it and I feel that instead of apologizing he as the tournament director should have forfeited the game which would have cost him the match no just said I’m sorry. P has played for about 20 years been to the VNEA championship in Vegas between 5 and 10 times and in fact is only a week back from it this year! So I find it hard to believe he didn’t know that you can’t do that but even if he did he should have done what I believe is right and forfeited the game!
I spoke to P the next day and told him I think he cheated and he was a scumbag for pulling that move and he said he made an honest mistake and apologized for it so it was ok!
Further as I have known P for years we have had many discussions about running tournaments and I have voiced my opinion many times that there are 3 things a tournament director at a big event like this shouldn’t do 1) you are being paid to run it and therefore should not play as it is a conflict of interest. 2) Drink while running the tournament, which he started to do as soon as the bar opened, his reasoning was I always drink while I play! 3) cheat, as a tournament director you must be beyond reproach in your actions even if it is detrimental to yourself.
What does everyone else think, please vote on the poll.
As far as I know this is only a rule in APA. I took a quick scan of the VNEA tournament rules, both general and 8 ball and neither of them mention breaking your cue down.

Conclusion: while it could be conclude that breaking the cue down was a concession, it's not in the rules and therefore he didn't cheat.

As far as a tournament director playing in the tournament he's running, I've done it. I'll do it again, I will always try find someone impartial to make a call if necessary. Mind you, I've never run a tournament with more than 60 players.


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location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Last edited by supergreenman; 06-14-2016 at 10:43 AM.
  
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06-14-2016, 11:00 AM

Universally, you break your cue down, that game is over.
  
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06-14-2016, 11:09 AM

Maybe not cheating but a real low-class, shit move, IMO
  
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06-14-2016, 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by decent dennis View Post
Universally, you break your cue down, that game is over.
Universally, if it's not in the rules, it's not a rule.

eg. the one foot on the floor rule that wasn't in the rules at the IPT.


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06-14-2016, 11:16 AM

Before player B went to shoot his last ball and 8 ball, while P was breaking down his cue, B should have asked P if he was conceding the game. The time to ask if an opponent is conceding is before you shoot, not after you lose, sorry. If it appears someone is giving me the game I double check before disturbing any balls, if he is in fact conceding I do not then shoot and see if I would have made remaining balls, I get the rack and balls out for next game. I am not condoning what P did in this case, far from it, but you always gotta be sure what your opponent means if you are not clear on something before proceeding, not after.
  
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06-14-2016, 11:35 AM

Cheating = breaking the rules. It's not cheating since it's not a rule. It's obviously something that usually means he conceded the game though, so it's poor sportsmanship.
  
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06-14-2016, 12:02 PM

I wouldnt call it cheating. I would call it class-less, which is just as bad. The TD knew he was conceding. Once the cue was broken down i would have raked the balls and said thank you. Hindsight is always 20/20 though. Ive been in this spot before on both ends of the spectrum. I broke my cue down, went back to table and ran out, and gave the win to my opponent and explained why. Another fellow broke down on me, and i went to shake his hand. He looked at me crazy for a split second, then realized i acepted his concession. He was pissed for a second but realized that you dont break your cue down. Period.
  
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06-14-2016, 12:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GideonF View Post
For those who were getting a headache trying to read the OP, here it is with a bit of formatting:

---

Just wondering if you would consider this cheating or an honest mistake?

Our local VNEA league coordinator and tournament director ran a series of 32 qualifiers 8ball, race to 2, D/E where the top two finishers got a spot in a big finals tournament.

The finials was 64 players with almost $6000 in prize money to be awarded everyone of the 64 players got money.

So where the issue I have is the tournament director lets call him P is in a match for 9/12th with a player we will call B. B is up 1 to 0 in the race to 2 and P is shooting. P misses his last ball and scratches leaving a fairly easy 5 ball out as B is a very good player. P (the tournament director) then proceeds to take his playing cue apart and put it in his case and sit in his chair! B gets up and starts shooting but gets tough on the 8 and misses it. P then jumps out of his chair takes his cue out of his case screws it back together and pockets the two remaining balls.

B then goes to rack for the hill game and while he is the P is informed that taking his cue apart is ILLEAGAL and upon B returning from racking he tells B that what he did was ILLEAGAL claims he had no idea and says he is sorry! Then P proceeds to let B break the next game and P ends up winning the hill game and eliminating B! P goes on to finish 4th and make significantly more money.

I was playing on the next table over and was so angry watching this I started to shake, I couldn’t believe P who I have known and helped for years would do this.

To me its flat out cheating, even if he didn’t know the rule he was informed of it and I feel that instead of apologizing he as the tournament director should have forfeited the game which would have cost him the match no just said I’m sorry. P has played for about 20 years been to the VNEA championship in Vegas between 5 and 10 times and in fact is only a week back from it this year! So I find it hard to believe he didn’t know that you can’t do that but even if he did he should have done what I believe is right and forfeited the game!

I spoke to P the next day and told him I think he cheated and he was a scumbag for pulling that move and he said he made an honest mistake and apologized for it so it was ok!

Further as I have known P for years we have had many discussions about running tournaments and I have voiced my opinion many times that there are 3 things a tournament director at a big event like this shouldn’t do

1) you are being paid to run it and therefore should not play as it is a conflict of interest.

2) Drink while running the tournament, which he started to do as soon as the bar opened, his reasoning was I always drink while I play!

3) cheat, as a tournament director you must be beyond reproach in your actions even if it is detrimental to yourself.

What does everyone else think, please vote on the poll.
I 100% agree with statement 1 & 3. 2- is a matter of preference to me as there is a difference between having a drink and being drunk.

I might also like to add that if the TD (or any player) breaks down his cue, it is usually considered forfeiting the match. Its not in the most rulebooks, but is usually an unwritten rule in my experience. As such, I blame the player. He should have clarified with the TD if he was conceding the match before continuing to shoot. That would have clarified any confusion. The problem here is that he assumed the forfeit. I would have confirmed before shooting myself, and always will. I dont like winning games that way, but hey, if you give up, thats not my fault. ....just adding from reading into post more, If the player contiues shooting, he is waiving any rights to say that there was a forfiet. Someting like not notifying the shooter has committed 2fouls in a 3foul ruling. IMO.

Last edited by Skratch; 06-14-2016 at 12:30 PM.
  
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06-14-2016, 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GideonF View Post
For those who were getting a headache trying to read the OP, here it is with a bit of formatting:

---

Just wondering if you would consider this cheating or an honest mistake?

Our local VNEA league coordinator and tournament director ran a series of 32 qualifiers 8ball, race to 2, D/E where the top two finishers got a spot in a big finals tournament.

The finials was 64 players with almost $6000 in prize money to be awarded everyone of the 64 players got money.

So where the issue I have is the tournament director lets call him P is in a match for 9/12th with a player we will call B. B is up 1 to 0 in the race to 2 and P is shooting. P misses his last ball and scratches leaving a fairly easy 5 ball out as B is a very good player. P (the tournament director) then proceeds to take his playing cue apart and put it in his case and sit in his chair! B gets up and starts shooting but gets tough on the 8 and misses it. P then jumps out of his chair takes his cue out of his case screws it back together and pockets the two remaining balls.

B then goes to rack for the hill game and while he is the P is informed that taking his cue apart is ILLEAGAL and upon B returning from racking he tells B that what he did was ILLEAGAL claims he had no idea and says he is sorry! Then P proceeds to let B break the next game and P ends up winning the hill game and eliminating B! P goes on to finish 4th and make significantly more money.

I was playing on the next table over and was so angry watching this I started to shake, I couldn’t believe P who I have known and helped for years would do this.

To me its flat out cheating, even if he didn’t know the rule he was informed of it and I feel that instead of apologizing he as the tournament director should have forfeited the game which would have cost him the match no just said I’m sorry. P has played for about 20 years been to the VNEA championship in Vegas between 5 and 10 times and in fact is only a week back from it this year! So I find it hard to believe he didn’t know that you can’t do that but even if he did he should have done what I believe is right and forfeited the game!

I spoke to P the next day and told him I think he cheated and he was a scumbag for pulling that move and he said he made an honest mistake and apologized for it so it was ok!

Further as I have known P for years we have had many discussions about running tournaments and I have voiced my opinion many times that there are 3 things a tournament director at a big event like this shouldn’t do

1) you are being paid to run it and therefore should not play as it is a conflict of interest.

2) Drink while running the tournament, which he started to do as soon as the bar opened, his reasoning was I always drink while I play!

3) cheat, as a tournament director you must be beyond reproach in your actions even if it is detrimental to yourself.

What does everyone else think, please vote on the poll.
The tournament director should have disqualified himself.
I totally agree with a previous reply--
if he/she plays in the tournament as well, the tournament director is held to a HIGHER STANDARD.

Nothing else to say.

Last edited by boogeyman; 06-14-2016 at 12:36 PM.
  
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If the opponent was good with it:
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If the opponent was good with it: - 06-14-2016, 12:41 PM

That is that.
The second the man broke his stick down the player at the table had the option to continue or claim the set.
He chose to continue. Friends do that. Seen it. Done it.
Sportsmanship,
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06-14-2016, 12:58 PM

If a guy breaks down his cue versus me, I'm not shooting another ball. Once you start the run, if you dog...of course the opponent will get up to shoot.
  
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06-14-2016, 01:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by supergreenman View Post
Universally, if it's not in the rules, it's not a rule. ...
So because the rules mention nothing about M-80s, if you set off an M-80 behind your opponent on his final stroke on the game ball, it's not a foul?


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06-14-2016, 01:11 PM

For me, if I were either B or P... the game isn't over until the last ball goes down or someone explicitly concedes.

I know people say that breaking down the cue is symbolism for conceding, and I suppose I get that, but I don't look at it that way.

If you want to break down your cue.. I don't really care. I'll ask you if you're giving up. If you don't say anything, I'll consider the game still on. If you say you're done then there's no argument.

It's an avoidable situation. It's almost like assuming you don't have to shoot a 9-ball hanger at the end of the game. Assumptions create situations like this.




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