Back arm perpendicular- why?

Have you been using the same cue for years? during this period.

If so, I would suggest trying another person's cue that is more rear balanced. It's my own personal understanding that your grip hand makes a lot of "comfort" judgements based on this.

For me, a more forward balanced cue does the trick, as I like a ligher-feeling cue. But really in fact it is the same ol' 19oz.

There are many different pro players that have unorthodox strokes and stances etc. and still shoot excellent so If you can master the way you shoot go at it.
Ron

spoons said:

Here's my dilemma:

I've been told by players much more accomplished than I that I should work on getting my back arm perpendicular at contact. Nearly every book, article, AZB post, etc. that discusses fundamentals seems to agree.

When I play, my arm is usually forward of perpendicular at contact. I wouldn't say dramatically, but very clearly visible to anyone who's looking. I've done this for years, because it's more comfortable, it feels more natural to me, and I seem to get significantly more consistent results.

I've tried several times to "fix" my stroke, by moving my grip hand back, or addressing the ball differently- for months at a time, even - with no appreciable result other than feeling awkward at the table, and playing significantly worse than I know I'm capable. I feel like I have enough "stroke" playing my usual way, to do anything I need to do at the table, but I can't help but wonder if there's a compelling reason to try fixing my mechanics again.

Ultimately, I don't want my game to be limited by something like this, so I thought I'd put the question to the board. What are the benefits, scientific or otherwise, of addressing the cue ball with your back arm perpendicular to the ground?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

The whole purpose of a perpendicular back arm is to get a pendulum motion that is consistent every time. The reason why this is important is because during your contact point with the cueball, if your back arm is completely perpendicular with the table that means that you cue is contacting the cue ball on a level plane. This just assures a more consistent hit and more predictablility of your stroke. It is worth trying to develop your pendulum motion of your back arm but personally think that if your stroke is solid and consistent then you stoke is solid and consistent!

If it ain't broke...don't fix it (but when it breaks, write a new post! lol)

mechanical theory

Simple mechanical theory using a pendulum stroke indicates that to minimize the up and down motion of your tip when a circular motion(the arc of the pendulum) is converted to linier motion through a fixed point, your bridge, the best place to hit the cue ball is when the pendulum is at the bottom of it's stroke with the least curving arcing motion. (slightly adjusted because the cue is rarely perfectly level and to support this theory the forearm should be at a perfect right angle to the stick when contact is made with the cue ball)

However, that is theory. Having watched strokes of the pro's for years, looked at the pictures and video's of many instructors, and watched many top local players, I note that with rare exceptions all commonly address the cue ball before shooting with the forearm anywhere from slightly to pronouncedly ahead of the "correct" right angle. Obviously the tip goes further forward to contact the cue ball so with the exception of the very few using a slip stroke they are using the same technique you are.

Don't make changes based on theory, take a hard look at what is working for you and for most other people. Does what is happening support the theory? If not toss the theory out the window. For the most perfect pendulum using the right angle contact look at video of Jasmin Ouschan. Bear in mind that she has been coached since she was a small child however, that is anything but a natural stroke in my opinion. Definitely effective but so are dozens of other strokes.

Hu

spoons said:

Here's my dilemma:

I've been told by players much more accomplished than I that I should work on getting my back arm perpendicular at contact. Nearly every book, article, AZB post, etc. that discusses fundamentals seems to agree.

When I play, my arm is usually forward of perpendicular at contact. I wouldn't say dramatically, but very clearly visible to anyone who's looking. I've done this for years, because it's more comfortable, it feels more natural to me, and I seem to get significantly more consistent results.

I've tried several times to "fix" my stroke, by moving my grip hand back, or addressing the ball differently- for months at a time, even - with no appreciable result other than feeling awkward at the table, and playing significantly worse than I know I'm capable. I feel like I have enough "stroke" playing my usual way, to do anything I need to do at the table, but I can't help but wonder if there's a compelling reason to try fixing my mechanics again.

Ultimately, I don't want my game to be limited by something like this, so I thought I'd put the question to the board. What are the benefits, scientific or otherwise, of addressing the cue ball with your back arm perpendicular to the ground?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Jasmin Ouschan definately has the best technical stroke that I have seen. I mean it does look a little unnatural but that it because it is a focal point of her game; especially during high pressure situations such as televised matches like the ones we usually see. But honestly....that girl is GOOD!

I'll second what Hu said

:wink:

Other factors for you may be ...the size of the handle where it feels comfortable to your hand (different makers have varying diameters)...the goal is trying to have as long of a straight line for the shaft in the contact zone (where the most consistent hit is the one going through the ball toward the target as long as possible to maximize your chances of spot on accuracy, with the possible exception of different spins).....the length of space between your bridge hand and contact point will also factor in.

Lots of different points of interest, but if it concerns you it may be that you need a narrower handle for your hand to feel comfortable (or a looser grip) so you can slide it back. All things that this banger wouldn't know!!

Good luck.

td

I believe it also has to do with the timing of your stroke as well.

If your arm is perpendicular at contact it's easier to hit the cue ball at peak accelaration. However if your lower arm is too far forward you may be de-accelarating at contact.

Even if you are stroking straight, that doesn't mean your stroke is perfect. By improving your timing you can generate more power and spin with less effort.

Several more motion points too

One thing the theory doesn't consider is that there are several more motion points beyond the elbow. The wrist is in motion and can be used to extend or move the theoretical ideal angle of the fore arm. The fingers can be used for the same result.

Simple answers work for machines. Simple answers can work for humans too but since we are far more complicated and sophisticated than any machine ever made there are often other solutions also. A pure pendulum feels too mechanical to me and I can't get comfortable with it. Slightly modified works much better and on bar tables or for close work I may go to almost a pump stroke.

Watching the greats of the fifties and sixties I notice individual players using various strokes for various shots, they didn't try to make one stroke fit all shots. With the same equipment and same competition to hone themselves against as today's players I think they would do just fine today.

Hu

grindz said:

:wink:

Other factors for you may be ...the size of the handle where it feels comfortable to your hand (different makers have varying diameters)...the goal is trying to have as long of a straight line for the shaft in the contact zone (where the most consistent hit is the one going through the ball toward the target as long as possible to maximize your chances of spot on accuracy, with the possible exception of different spins).....the length of space between your bridge hand and contact point will also factor in.

Lots of different points of interest, but if it concerns you it may be that you need a narrower handle for your hand to feel comfortable (or a looser grip) so you can slide it back. All things that this banger wouldn't know!!

Good luck.

td

Click to expand...

spoons said:

What are the benefits, scientific or otherwise, of addressing the cue ball with your back arm perpendicular to the ground?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Not a teacher, but I believe the geometry of the reason is partially to keep the high vs low contact with the cueball more consistent.

Maybe if one of the things you are struggling with is cueball distance control, especially when drawing, the maybe the back arm being forward leaves too small a margin of error to be consistent.

Then again, if you're rock solid with touch and able to draw whitey back on top of a dime from any distance, forget about it.

The geometry has already been explained...If you are past perp...at impact that mean your grip is going up and the tip is going down.....

If you are far enough Away from the CB this may mean you need to drop your elbow to maintain the tip accuracy...(Probably not good)

However....If you really look close at many top players....You will see that they "set up" with the arm in a pependicuar position, but at impact they are "just forward" of perpendicular....I watched Jasmin and she is "Just Forward" ..(at impact)

The reason for this is that if you set up perpendicular...the tip is just short of the CB so at impact your arm will end up "Just Forward"...

I see MANY top pros that are "Just Forward"...I set up this way and I am sure I am also just forward at impact.

The key "I guess" is to make it a consistent set up and I try and get my tip as close to the CB on set up as possible to minimze the "just forward: aspect.

I personally can't get to perpendicular "at impact" because I can't get comfortable setting up with my hand just behind perpendicular...I feel it is much more consistent and natural to "set up" perpendicular

Do a video and see if the cue is reasonably level at contact. If it is then you must be compensating elsewhere. If the arm is past level the cue tip should be traveling upwards at contact.... unless the wrist or hand is keeping it level.

What the hell... if the cue is level at contact seems like all is well.

Stroke

with your grip hand forward, you are pushing the cueball not stroking it.
Players, insecure with their stroke, do this trying to guide or control the cueball more. It is called overcompensation.

Bet I could watch you shoot and tell you what shots that are a problem for you.

spoons said:

Here's my dilemma:

I've been told by players much more accomplished than I that I should work on getting my back arm perpendicular at contact. Nearly every book, article, AZB post, etc. that discusses fundamentals seems to agree.

When I play, my arm is usually forward of perpendicular at contact. I wouldn't say dramatically, but very clearly visible to anyone who's looking. I've done this for years, because it's more comfortable, it feels more natural to me, and I seem to get significantly more consistent results.

I've tried several times to "fix" my stroke, by moving my grip hand back, or addressing the ball differently- for months at a time, even - with no appreciable result other than feeling awkward at the table, and playing significantly worse than I know I'm capable. I feel like I have enough "stroke" playing my usual way, to do anything I need to do at the table, but I can't help but wonder if there's a compelling reason to try fixing my mechanics again.

Ultimately, I don't want my game to be limited by something like this, so I thought I'd put the question to the board. What are the benefits, scientific or otherwise, of addressing the cue ball with your back arm perpendicular to the ground?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Keeping your arm perpendicular is good for faster learning curve, but I think the right or left sway is something that affects your stroke accuracy more dramatically.

The simple answer is...

If you contact the ball past the perpendicular, you WILL drop your elbow (a generally agreed on bad thing...right up there with jumping up).

spoons said:

What are the benefits, scientific or otherwise, of addressing the cue ball with your back arm perpendicular to the ground?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

I think the benefits are minimal, unless you are extremely far forward in which case you may be cramping your stroke.

Many of the world's best shooters drop their elbow on some shots. I wouldn't sweat it if you can hit the CB where you want to.

Hardest thing is getting the bridge on the right line for the shot and then not swooping sideways. If you can do that it's hardly gonna matter if your back arm is perpendicular.

btw: There's also the argument that the back arm should be vertical (looking from the front) to allow straight pendulum cuing. Again, very few pros are perfectly vertical in this plane, but most have learned to move the cue straight enough so as to get the desired effect. I spent years trying to get my arm vertical in this plane. It was largely a waste of time. I would have gotten 10 times the benefit from paying attention to where I was placing my bridge hand I believe. I mean, place your bridge hand slightly off the required alignment and you're not gonna make that pot without some sideway swooping or bridge hand movement.

Colin

spoons said:

Here's my dilemma:

I've been told by players much more accomplished than I that I should work on getting my back arm perpendicular at contact. Nearly every book, article, AZB post, etc. that discusses fundamentals seems to agree.

When I play, my arm is usually forward of perpendicular at contact. I wouldn't say dramatically, but very clearly visible to anyone who's looking. I've done this for years, because it's more comfortable, it feels more natural to me, and I seem to get significantly more consistent results.

I've tried several times to "fix" my stroke, by moving my grip hand back, or addressing the ball differently- for months at a time, even - with no appreciable result other than feeling awkward at the table, and playing significantly worse than I know I'm capable. I feel like I have enough "stroke" playing my usual way, to do anything I need to do at the table, but I can't help but wonder if there's a compelling reason to try fixing my mechanics again.

Ultimately, I don't want my game to be limited by something like this, so I thought I'd put the question to the board. What are the benefits, scientific or otherwise, of addressing the cue ball with your back arm perpendicular to the ground?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

my guess would be that you are changing your grip position but not changing anything else..

your grip has developed into what it is by compensating for your bridge and your tip to cueball warm up distance the farther away you are... you bring into play a whole battery of things..

if you find the bridge distance that works with a perpendicular grip arm and a level cue.. and you begin the stroke with the tip at the ball... if your elbow is the only joint moving.. and you have a nice loose grip...you have a 100% chance of hitting the cueball exactly where you intend to....

you need all the fundamentals not just one...

you are obviously not happy with the level of your game as it is or you wouldn't be looking for help...

SPF... it works... find an instructor and fix it once and for all..

good luck..

spoons said:

Here's my dilemma:

I've been told by players much more accomplished than I that I should work on getting my back arm perpendicular at contact. Nearly every book, article, AZB post, etc. that discusses fundamentals seems to agree.

When I play, my arm is usually forward of perpendicular at contact. I wouldn't say dramatically, but very clearly visible to anyone who's looking. I've done this for years, because it's more comfortable, it feels more natural to me, and I seem to get significantly more consistent results.

I've tried several times to "fix" my stroke, by moving my grip hand back, or addressing the ball differently- for months at a time, even - with no appreciable result other than feeling awkward at the table, and playing significantly worse than I know I'm capable. I feel like I have enough "stroke" playing my usual way, to do anything I need to do at the table, but I can't help but wonder if there's a compelling reason to try fixing my mechanics again.

Ultimately, I don't want my game to be limited by something like this, so I thought I'd put the question to the board. What are the benefits, scientific or otherwise, of addressing the cue ball with your back arm perpendicular to the ground?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Don't change.

The perpendicular at contact is a popular method - but not the only method, used by top players.

Both Willie Mosconi and Luther Lasiter, held the cue so far foward
that they had their arm perpendicular at the end of their backswing.

If you have 'plenty' of stroke. lord knows they did, playing the way
you do, there is no benifit to changing now.

Dale<sometimes forward holder>

fd_colorado said:

The simple answer is...

If you contact the ball past the perpendicular, you WILL drop your elbow (a generally agreed on bad thing...right up there with jumping up).

Click to expand...

Not agreed on by most every top Straight Pool player
of the past 80 years.

Watch a few videos of them hitting break shots.

Dale