Arizona Ratings System

It's not much different here in El Paso, where they handicap everything in site just to attract as many players as possible. Then, after the tournament draws many players, they shave the matches down to a race to three. The biggest tournament in El Paso is Saturday afternoon at clicks. It is round robin play. When you lose 6 games, you are out of the tournement, and all matches are race to 1. Myself, I can only lose 4 or 5 (depending on the mood of the TD) and I am out, which is fair, but I don't like the idea of race 1, but the tourney attracts so many players of different skill levels, they needed to speed things up. I've done pretty well with that system, but I've also done not well, which makes the system even itself out. I guarantee you if I win this tournament again, I'll be 3 losses and out, a fate I'd prefer to giving someone the wild 5 out which was the last system they used. Pretty much when someone's got to give you the 5 out, someone should have stayed home. Without smashing the feelings of the person getting the 5 out, I declined to play in the tournament and tried to find competition that was more on MY level. I'm not alone there, I can remember when Keith McCready was in El Paso a few years back they would not allow him to play at a tournament just because of who he was (Gabbie's). This was quite puzzling to me when I heard about it, but several months later Mando Canales and I were both turned away as well. We weren't there to slaughter the competition, we just wanted to hit some balls. Go Figure. I had always thought that most places wanted to draw the best players, thus giving the regulars a chance to play the best players in their area. Another point is that Hard Times has always drawn many players at all of their tournaments, and the players that show up are very tough, pro status or not. Pretty much the same can be said of the tournaments at CJ's in Dallas, and Amsterdam Billiard Club East in Manhatten. Tough tournaments are tough due to the tough players that enter them.

You guys should come to Fat Cats in Florida sometime. It's open to anyone for only $25. But if you don't want to go 2 and out you better be a pretty good "A" player. (Of course I am not referring to you when I say you)I have seen Varner, Williams, Grossman, Richardson, Martin, Viera, Brompton, Townsend, Ellersby, etc play there at times. But the average Joe, or even the above average Joe, doesn't really have a chance to come in the money. But then, the place is under new management, not serving food, and has not really been getting that many players in the past several months.

That is the reality, my friends

Hello Friends,
A friend of mine, a gambler,from Arizona also believes that handicap system ruined the game. I do not share that view.Jimmy,I got an idea.All those 10 minus 1 and 10 minus 2 s, who were not allowed in the local tourneys,form your own league and have your own picnics and tournaments,if one is concerned about loosing touch with the tournament play. Hi ,Black Jack,
Why don`t Clicks in Elpaso have more 9 foot tables?They have good chicken wings though! Cheers
Vagabond

vagabond asks-
why doesn't Clicks in El Paso have more 9 ft tables?


That's another flaw in their tourney system. You can play some matches on 8 footers and some on 9 footers, seeing that they only have 4 - 9 ft tables. I guess when it opened, they figured they could fit more 8 ft tables in, therefore genrating more revenue from the tables. They charge over $8 an hour per player after 7PM, with the exception of a few days where they have a constant flat rate from open to close. I've only been there twice since December. I play mostly in rooms when I'm on the road.

Arkansas is where I 'are'

I don't feal as frustrated about our tournements after reading these posts.

Open tournements have about gone away unless you advertise and get road players to come in. Then a lot of the locals pull up.
A 32 man field is special any more.

As far as handicap tournements go. The better players continue to bitch about handicaps and continue to take the money. The shortstops get there some and the average players and below continue to contribute or get better or quit. To often the quit is the choice.

The handicap system is a little subject to question. I ask if any of you have a system that you like for 9 ball handicaping?

Our 10 point system includes playing call 9. The better players want to keep the call 9 because they are afraid the 3s & 4s will S/O on them. I am trying to push to removve the call 9 with not much support.

I am looking for a good 9 ball handicap system to introduce to them.

Help Please

Porter

rated tournments

I run pool room, if I didnt run rated tourny I would not have one long I have run run open tourny with added big money. some road hog would slide in and win then he was gone until next tourny. so I have low entry, and rate it keep the money home for my home boys!!be good to your regular customars. STICKl

Mike, they used to draw around 32 players but now they have trouble getting 20. They would get some average players to enter just for the privilage of playing a pro. One elderly gentleman would enter and had no hope of winning a match, let alone come in the money, and he knew it but just liked to play against them. I saw him play Grossman and he accidently touched the CB with his Cue and Grossman told him to go ahead and shoot, and took it easy on him too. the term "A" player is pretty subjective and I use it to mean someone who would be at least a 7 in APA, someone who is capable of running out anytime he gets to the table. And wins most of the time when he plays agains lesser players. But an "A" player in one part of town may not be able to compete against an "A" player in another part of town. As far as handicaps go here they are all very subjective and set by the pool hall owners. Usually if a player wins a tournament twice they move him up. Or if he wins a certain amount of money they move him up. Two places play races to your handicap on sundays. Then during the week the handicap is a spot ball the difference between handicaps. Unfortunately they only pay 3 or 4 places so the average Joe has a very hard time coming in the money. The handicap mentioned above where the pro player spots everyone a game on the wire is a joke. All it means is that most people would lose 5-1 or 7-1. The top players would probably win a few more games but still lose the match. I would like to see single leagues where people play against people at their own level. Have it set up for D, C, B, A, AA, pro. At the end of the session the top player would move up to the next level and the bottom player would move down one level. That's the way they worked handball and racketball back in Chicago. They could run single leagues in addition to team leagues. Jake

Jimmy M. said:

There is no incentive for a player to get any better. In fact, it is encouraged to keep playing like shit! Usually, when this discussion is brought up around here, the people who support the system don't see a problem because there isn't one for them. They don't play all that well, and the system works great for them. They can play in a tournament every night of the week. They get the 12 shots per game that they need to win one, and life is great! ...........

All I can say to people like Vagabond is, no need to sit there and make assenine suggestions. The better players in town aren't going to run out and start some little gay club or anything like that. The rating system isn't going anywhere, and you'll still have your little tournaments to play in where you can get together with a bunch of other guys, beat the shit out of the rails, shit in a 9 ball or two, and win a tournament. Have fun.

Click to expand...

Jimmy, you talk my kinda talk.
That is the main reason why pool has gone absolutely nowhere but backwards the past ten years. Participation is up, but participation is up on the coin chompers, and lots of people are getting rich as the sport goes nowhere; and the quality of play has been watered down and diluted to fit the needs of the "occasional" or novice player. Let's face it though, that's where the numbers are, and those are the people that are actually spending money to buy products. All of the businesses in the industry know that, and that is their target market, as well as the target market of the room owners in your state, as well as many others. That is why I mentioned the problem of excluding the better players or handicapping their nuts off in the hopes that they'll eventually stay away. Stick's response was right on the money. He knows that he needs to keep it good for his paying customers. I don't know how it is there, but I'd venture to say that it's just like it is here in El Paso. The "top players" aren't likely to spend a lot of money in any room. They got short arms and deep pockets. I know that because I've owned rooms in the past, and most (not all) of the "best players" are looking for freebies and handouts. You may or may not fit into that category, none of my business, but that's a major problem that's been around longer than both of us. L.A.'s got a strong field, and it may not be a bad idea to go there on a regular basis as the experience factor would help you tremendously. Albuquerque also has a strong field of players, and back in the 1980's and 1990's, I'd always go up there to match up with Louie Roybal, Cisco Martinez, Wil Maestas and others. When you play guys at your level consistently, you tend to not really pay attention to what's going on in the leagues and B level tournaments. Besides, why waste the energy if it just pisses you off?

I was going to stay out of this discussion because it never seems to have a resolution, but here is my opinion.

The ratings system is not perfect....there is no argument about this...but for about 9300 members out of the close to 9800 members we have onthe list now...it works pretty well.

I agree absolutely that something needs to be done about the ratings as they exist right now, but the problem is this:

The bar and pool room owners, who are guilty of nothing accept trying to be successful, have figured out that of the 9800 people on the ratings sheet, 9300 or more are 7's and under. Well, these 7's and under spend a lot more money as a group than do the 300-400 who are 8's and above. Now, unfortunately, the 7's and under as a group, for the most part, will not play in a tourney they they see 9's or 10's invited too...so instead of getting 32-64 players in a touney...you get 16-25, if that. Now you would think that out of that 16-25 players in a 9 and under or 10 and under touney that most of those remaining would be 9's and 10's, but they are not. Because there are only a few players in the tourneys, the 9's and 10's dont show up either, because there is not the incentive to play in a small tourney like that. It doesnt make any sense, but Ive seen it happen, time and time again. So, its sort of a catch 22 for the bar owners...because they only want to make money. They didnt open their business to cater to only a relative few players..they would rather have the greater of the two groups in their bar spending money, and I dont blame them. A local establshment here on the west side holds an 8 and under tourney on Friday nights and it is full, with 32 players, without fail, almost every week. It starts at 8pm and is usually full by 7:00 or 7:30 with a few being turned away at 8:00. The reason for this is that it caters to the 6's and 7's as it is a ratings minus 3 and loser breaks...over half the players are normally 6's. They have a good chance to win this tourney because of the format. If they changed the format at all, bye alternating breaks, or winner breaks, or even making it a minus 2 tourneyand opening it up to 9's or 10's to draw higher rated players, within a month, it would be a 16 player field again and because of this, the higher rated players would not show up anyway. This place had a 9-under tourney with the exact same format on Saturday night, but hey made it a 9-under and without fail, 1 or 2 9's showed up, and they got less than 16 players to participate every week. A 9 very seldom ever won it by the way, but they did not have any 6's at all....so they changed the format to 8's and under again about 2 months ago and it has 24 or more again.

I believe that the ratings system should be revamped and possibly make it more graduated than going straight from 6 to 7 and 7 to 8, etc. A friend and fellow committe member brought up the possibility of redesigning the ratings to have it more graduated by making a 6 to 6 +1 to 7 type system. Under the current system, you have a 6 rated player who starts dominating his fellow players as a 6 and goes to a higher rating. By doing this, you now lose his patronage in your tournaments as well as your bar. But, if you have a graduated system and make him a 6+1, he can still play in the 6-under tourney, but he would go to an extra game, or his opponent would go to one less than his normal race, if time is an issue for the races. He could still play with the group of friends he has made and shoots with all the time and if he is still dominating them, the you make him a 7. same with all the other ratings. Now something like this would be a nightmare for the committee to implement because at least have the players at each level would want to be rerated, but if that aspect could be figured out, then it might make for a more gradual change in the ratings problems we have. This is just one idea that I have heard and liked.

We also would need to have a large group of the bar owners that would be willing to take a chance and open their tourneys up to higher rated players, but still have races to handicap or handicap minus a number...if enough of them do this and they stick by it for more than a month or two, they would still get their tourneys filled up, eventually, because the 7's and under will still want to play and will come back and fill up the tourneys...but it will be hard to get the owners to set down the rating system and their 7-under and 8-under touneys because there is so much money to made from the much larger group of lower rated players.

I believe in the committee and I think that it has done a lot for pool in the state of Arizona, but it does need improvements to make it a good thing to progress in talent and ability.

I am trying to work from within the system to make changes and anyone else that has opinions or ideas can submit a request to join the committee and help with the changes or possibly give ideas to other committee members that they might know. The committee has opened itself up. It is accepting applications for members at large or players representatives. One just needs to send a letter with desire and qualifications to Ron Marseal, Arizona Billiards News or Bob Jackson, Main Street Billiards. Both email and snailmail addresses can be found in the Arizona Billiard News.

Im not recruiting, just letting Arizona pool players know that they have the ability to help make a change in the system as it exists right now.

Anywayz, thats my humble opinion and take a breath now...Im done typing.

Chuck Parrill

My dear friend Jimmy,
I can understand your frustrations but I do not agree with your position on handicap system.I will reveal myself for one time.I played in higher level tournaments including invitational and world championships.This is the first and last time I will ever remove my mask. I have lot of respect for u and my advise to u: If u lament too much u may loose your credibility.Cheers
Vagabond

My point above, included that I agree with Jimmy for the most part. I dont think there ought to be any "#-under" tournaments. If there is a rating system in place, then it should be open for all players to play in all tournaments, based on their ratings.

I think that there a lot of players that would be left out in the cold in an A B C system, in fact it was tried in Phoenix back at the end of the 80's and early 90's here...There is too much of an advantage to the higher rated players of the A's and the B's and the C's. If that is all we had, then of course people would work from within those parameters...but since the C players are 7 and unders and B players are 8 and 9 rated players and the A's are 10 rated players and above....the 7's, 9's, and 10-2's from the current system would dominate for a LONG time. So, I agree with the higher range of ratings...from 4 to 10-2.

The solution would be to (ideally) open ALL tournaments to ALL ratings. Abolish the #-under tourneys. Unfortunately, in my pessimistic opinion, the bar owners think that they would lose too much money if the tourneys were opened up. I wish we could get a significant number to commit to trying their tourneys as open to all ratings for a year or more just to see what would happen. I think that that it would help the game in Arizona and the current rating system.

again, just my opinion.

Chucklez65