Pros & Cons of Small Tip Size

ArizonaPete · May 5, 2009

I'm thinking about buying a performance shaft - either a Predator or OB. I'm leaning toward the OB. But I'm not convinced that a low deflection shaft will help my game. If I do decide to buy one, the next question is should I get a 13mm tip (which I'm accustomed to and like) or should I go all the way with the OB-2 or Z shaft with an 11.75mm tip? I've shot for about 1/2 hour with a 12.5 mm tip and I feel I can hit the cue ball more accurately but seem to lose a little on drawback (can't hit the cue ball as low without jumping). Perhaps I need more playing time with the smaller diameter cue. Unfortunately there's no large pool hall in the area where I can try various cues.

I'd appreciate opinions on the pros and cons of going to something like a 11.75 mm tip size. And any opinions on whether low deflection shafts really help improve your game.

prewarhero · May 5, 2009

For me, the smaller the size the easier it is to cue up in my bridge hand. 13mm is too fat for me to used a closed bridge and still be comfortable.

socks · May 5, 2009

theres more differance between 314/ob-1 and z/ob-2 than just tip size. they have different tapers.

the 314 and ob-1 have a 15" pro taper, that means the shaft is 12.75mm starting at the tip and going back 15" staying a consistant 12.75mm and then is a cone up to the joint the rest of the way.

the z and ob-2 shafts are a strait or conical taper where the tip is 11.75mm and its a steady increase in size back to the joint, like a cone.

the later two will provide a stiffer hit and the cone affect provides stability and reduces flex in the shaft. but the smaller tip size will allow you to go further out on the edges of the cue ball without miscueing to apply more spin/english

mcdpool · May 5, 2009

I'm sorry, but I saw the "pros & cons of small tip size" right under the "shanelle loraine in finals" thread... and had to laugh out loud!

Just had to share.

center pocket · May 5, 2009

That is pretty funny!!!:rotflmao1:

enzo · May 5, 2009

pros
-more spin, especially on softly hit shots
-more draw (same as more spin i guess)

con
-more difficult to attain a centerball (ie no english) hit

in general, can shoot softer (which is great), but you'll have more trouble getting a dead flat ball.

the only spot in my game that didn't improve with my 314 was masse shots where you're curving around a ball to make a hit. you cant do that as well (cant curve as much) with a LD shaft. this really is the only shot that has gone downhill for me.

PDX · May 5, 2009

Shafts

I play with both a full shaft and an 11.5mm shaft, and I like them both. I will have to say that the 11.5 is a 30 year old shaft, the cue is a little thicker at the joint and not cored. It plays wonderful. I also play with a full 13 on my Runde, which is nice a firm. Actually, both cues are quite firm. There are more factors involved other that tip size. I can't speak for LD shafts as I am not a fan. But thinner has it's merits, as does thicker. I probably didn't help at all.

Patrick Johnson · May 5, 2009

the smaller tip size will allow you to go further out on the edges of the cue ball without miscueing to apply more spin/english

pros
-more spin, especially on softly hit shots
-more draw (same as more spin i guess)

con
-more difficult to attain a centerball (ie no english) hit

in general, can shoot softer (which is great), but you'll have more trouble getting a dead flat ball.

masse shots where you're curving around a ball to make a hit. you cant do that as well (cant curve as much) with a LD shaft

Sorry, but none of these are true. Everything works the same with a smaller tip except:

- it produces less squirt
- it's easier to see where you're hitting the cue ball

All the rest is just being unfamiliar with it.

pj
chgo

Surly · May 5, 2009

I have an 11.5 tip and a 13.

The 11.5 really made me focus on my contact with the cue ball. It was like, "Jeez, this is like shooting with a pencil!" It was almost like it was marking the lines like a laser. Or an arrow.

The I put a Ram tip on it and everything went to hell. I'm shooting with my 13 now, my game has come back, and I don't 'need' to pay such myopic attention to the contact point.... which is nice.

I agree that the smaller tip called for a softer stroke, and the draw was wicked.

Rich93 · May 5, 2009

Patrick Johnson said:
Sorry, but none of these are true. Everything works the same with a smaller tip except:

- it produces less squirt
- it's easier to see where you're hitting the cue ball

All the rest is just being unfamiliar with it.

pj
chgo

Judging by my results on up-and-down-the-table practice shots (shoot from the foot spot straight to the center of the far short cushion, see if the ball comes back over the foot spot), I think it may be slightly more difficult to hit center ball with a smaller tip.

Cue 1 is my playing cue with a 12mm tip. Cue 2 is a break cue with a 13mm pretty flat tip. On the few times I've tried it, Cue 2 does better on this shot. Could just be a small sample anomaly. Also, it gives me an handy excuse for failing to pass the test with the 12mm. But I wonder if there isn't something to it.

Patrick Johnson · May 5, 2009

Rich93:
Judging by my results on up-and-down-the-table practice shots (shoot from the foot spot straight to the center of the far short cushion, see if the ball comes back over the foot spot), I think it may be slightly more difficult to hit center ball with a smaller tip.

Maybe the unfamiliarity of the tip's size makes it a little harder for you to see when it's centered (until you're familiar with it), but you have to hit centerball just as accurately with either tip, and you get precisely the same reaction for the same amount of error (assuming the same tip curvature).

pj
chgo

3kushn · May 5, 2009

ArizonaPete said:
I'm thinking about buying a performance shaft - either a Predator or OB. I'm leaning toward the OB. But I'm not convinced that a low deflection shaft will help my game. If I do decide to buy one, the next question is should I get a 13mm tip (which I'm accustomed to and like) or should I go all the way with the OB-2 or Z shaft with an 11.75mm tip? I've shot for about 1/2 hour with a 12.5 mm tip and I feel I can hit the cue ball more accurately but seem to lose a little on drawback (can't hit the cue ball as low without jumping). Perhaps I need more playing time with the smaller diameter cue. Unfortunately there's no large pool hall in the area where I can try various cues.

I'd appreciate opinions on the pros and cons of going to something like a 11.75 mm tip size. And any opinions on whether low deflection shafts really help improve your game.

"Losing draw simply means you're not contacting the CB where you think you are, assuming all is well with your stroke. Pat Johnson leads to a good point. You have to get used to the shaft. 30 minutes isn't even close to enough time. You need hours or better yet, days or months to determine what you need unless you're such a player that people are feeding you cues for endorsement or you're constantly experimenting with different designs.

I speculate that the draw difference is simply not being used to seeing the CB with a smaller tip and maybe you're lining up the top of the smaller tip where the top of the larger tip was. The actual contact point is very small and a 1 or 2mm difference in contact point makes a huge difference in CB action. It's gonna take time.

Pick the one that's gonna give you the overall picture you want then play for a few months then decide if it was the right choice. Sorry and I know it's hard sometimes to spend a couple of C-notes on a shaft. Used to be able to buy a cue for that. Maybe 2.

Good luck.

scottyr44 · May 5, 2009

well hitting the cue ball any lower will not impart more spin on the cue ball so the smaller tip will not help in that fact, also a larger tip helps with applying the most spin. Under the idea that the more leather you touch the cue ball with the more friction is created. Just remember the best way to apply english is with a good stroke.

CueTable Help

this is the best i can do on tables around here but if you notice my tip position it is no more than a half of a tip
you shouldn't use more than a half of tip in any direction to apply the most spin possible, practice your stroke.

JoseV · May 5, 2009

To each there own i like my 13mm shaft and will never switch.

bencho · May 5, 2009

I used to play with this guy who used to go to my school. He graduated last year and is now doing grad somewhere else. Played with a Z and he *****ed EVERY time he missed shot or shape. I used to hate it but I've played with a Z and now have a Z2, as well as 314 and 314-2. I've come to understand that smaller tips exacerbate every mistake you make. If your stroke is off by the slightest bit, it makes you miss by a mile. I do not see the same effect in the 314/314-2. Now I realize the frustration that guy experienced after his shots.

So to answer your question, LD shafts do help. but moving around from shaft to shaft really messes up your game when it takes a little bit of time to readjust. If you're coming from a standard/stock shaft, I'd recommend starting with a 12.75, i.e. predator/ob1. Learn how the reduced deflection affects the way you shoot. Then move on to thinner shafts if you really want to, i.e. Z/ob2. I've had a friend jump from stock shaft straight to Z and he got extremely frustrated when he couldn't control it. Take small steps!

Deadon · May 5, 2009

bencho said:
So to answer your question, LD shafts do help. but moving around from shaft to shaft really messes up your game when it takes a little bit of time to readjust. If you're coming from a standard/stock shaft, I'd recommend starting with a 12.75, i.e. predator/ob1. Learn how the reduced deflection affects the way you shoot. Then move on to thinner shafts if you really want to, i.e. Z/ob2. I've had a friend jump from stock shaft straight to Z and he got extremely frustrated when he couldn't control it. Take small steps!

Good advice, and the tip size helps you get lower on the CB without miscuing. That is if you like to cue real low, which I do.

thefonz · May 5, 2009

i don't think the benefit is in the low deflection aspect of the shafts, if you have a good stroke the difference should be minimal. the biggest difference is the amount of spin you can apply to the cueball and the amount of throw that is imparted on the object ball (which does need some getting used to) many top players will attest to the fact that there are some things you can do with predator or ob shafts which are much more difficult with a regular one. this is usually making the cueball do some pretty cool things especially using reverse side and draw.

JimS · May 6, 2009

Patrick Johnson said:
Sorry, but none of these are true. Everything works the same with a smaller tip except:

- it produces less squirt
- it's easier to see where you're hitting the cue ball

All the rest is just being unfamiliar with it.

pj
chgo

True dat!

The characteristics can be argued or "discussed" all day but the bottom line is of course a high performance shaft helps one shoot more accurately and which size is just a matter of preference.

Get a Z2 and take the time to get used to the conical taper. Once you become acclimatized to it you'll find a new dimension to your game as you cb stays on course better and you enjoy seeing more accurately exactly where on the cb the tip will be striking.

The contact area on the cb is the same whether the tip is 10mm or 15mm. You get the same amount of spin/english regardless of the cue tip size except the small tip allows the contact point to be a bit lower and will produce more draw while strking the cb with less force. This is useful because you'll be shooting more softly and consequently be jawiing/jarring fewer shots.

I cannot fathom why people are so afraid of small tips. They are more precise and precision is the name of the game! No contest! Precision is what is needed to pot balls and move the cb to exactly the pin-point where you want it.

Patrick Johnson · May 6, 2009

scottyr44 said:
well hitting the cue ball any lower will not impart more spin on the cue ball

This is not true. Hitting the cue ball farther from center is the only way to impart more spin.

so the smaller tip will not help in that fact

A smaller tip doesn't hit lower anyway.

...also a larger tip helps with applying the most spin. Under the idea that the more leather you touch the cue ball with the more friction is created.

This is also not true. More leather touching the cue ball doesn't produce more friction.

you shouldn't use more than a half of tip in any direction to apply the most spin possible

Also not true. The most spin is applied by hitting the cue ball as far from center as possible (maximum is about halfway from center to edge).

...practice your stroke.

Finally, something I agree with.

pj
chgo

CueSportTV · May 6, 2009

I have always thought that the small tip size has led to more control of the cue ball, obviously thought this depends on how accurate your cueing is. English pool players (on our snooker like tables with 2" balls) use tips as small as 6mm - big difference is that on a smaller table you have to do less with the cue ball anyway.

I prefer a slightly smaller tip due to having played snooker in the past

Pros & Cons of Small Tip Size

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