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paksat
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Help me make informed decision - 05-25-2009, 09:46 AM

First i'd like to understand the difference in soft/med/hard tips. I love using draw whenever I can since I get the most control out of it ( just me though ) so which is best for that and why?

Another thing -

I can't get the predator site to load for me and i'm probably going to be making my investment within the next few days if all goes well.

I'm just wondering what the difference in construction is between the OB-2and the z2 is. The z2 is considerably more expensive, is there a reason?
  
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Shawn Armstrong
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05-25-2009, 09:51 AM

Predators are more expensive because they're made in Asia. OBs are less expensive because they're made in the USA. Wait, isn't that supposed to be the other way around?
  
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05-25-2009, 10:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Armstrong View Post
Predators are more expensive because they're made in Asia. OBs are less expensive because they're made in the USA. Wait, isn't that supposed to be the other way around?

I reckon that answers half of it lol
  
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05-25-2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by paksat View Post
Another thing -

I can't get the predator site to load for me and i'm probably going to be making my investment within the next few days if all goes well.
Are you using the right link? Try this one: http://www.predatorcues.com/
  
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05-25-2009, 11:02 AM

Regarding the tip question:

Hardness generally has a significant impact on the hit of your cue.

I would say it effect the amount of draw or other spin too, but it seems like some tips out there have a pretty hard hit, but are still able to spin the cue ball well. For example, My Wizard M tip is pretty hard by sound, but seems to draw and spin the cue ball well. Not sure why. Where, LePro is pretty soft and does not provide good spin on the ball in my opinion. The Triangle I'm trying, is supposed to be hard, but it sounds soft. It still has pretty good ball spin action.

When I say sounds hard, drop a short piece of 1 x 2 on the concrete floor. That bark is a stiff or hard/stiff hit sound. Put a single layer of t shirt between it and hear how it softens the hit. These sounds are simply the harmonics which occur when the wood/cue hits something hard. While I have no data, I reccon these harmonics transfer to the cue ball and loosen it from the cloth to promote skidding and spinning. That of course is just my SWAG!
  
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05-25-2009, 11:07 AM

[QUOTE=paksat;1837820]First i'd like to understand the difference in soft/med/hard tips. I love using draw whenever I can since I get the most control out of it ( just me though ) so which is best for that and why?
QUOTE]

Wow! First I'd like to explain that the more precise your question the closer you'll be to the answer. As for your question re the difference in soft/med/hard tips, the answer is obviously that they are of three different hardnesses.

I would need a full chapter on the subject of tips if and when I should ever get around to writing a book on billiard equipment. The softness or hardness of a tip is just one of a tip's characteristics. There is that much to know! Even when it comes to just the softness-hardness question, did you think the ideal tip would be equally hard from bottom to top? Or even from center to side?

You mentioned how you are concerned with how well a tip will draw the cueball. Even though that question could become quite complex when taking into consideration such things as ferrule width, expected level of humidity where you play, and cueball weight such as for snooker as compared to carom games, etc., etc., etc. And who knows how much I might not know about on this subject as well.

You want a tip that draws well for your cue and stroke and equipment and environment and ...? Just test them!

Hope I didn't come across as wise-ass on this one for I simply like to provide some answers for you guys!

For a better game of pool,

Eddie Robin
  
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05-25-2009, 11:58 AM

[QUOTE=Eddie Robin;1837910]
Quote:
Originally Posted by paksat View Post
First i'd like to understand the difference in soft/med/hard tips. I love using draw whenever I can since I get the most control out of it ( just me though ) so which is best for that and why?
QUOTE]

Wow! First I'd like to explain that the more precise your question the closer you'll be to the answer. As for your question re the difference in soft/med/hard tips, the answer is obviously that they are of three different hardnesses.

I would need a full chapter on the subject of tips if and when I should ever get around to writing a book on billiard equipment. The softness or hardness of a tip is just one of a tip's characteristics. There is that much to know! Even when it comes to just the softness-hardness question, did you think the ideal tip would be equally hard from bottom to top? Or even from center to side?

You mentioned how you are concerned with how well a tip will draw the cueball. Even though that question could become quite complex when taking into consideration such things as ferrule width, expected level of humidity where you play, and cueball weight such as for snooker as compared to carom games, etc., etc., etc. And who knows how much I might not know about on this subject as well.

You want a tip that draws well for your cue and stroke and equipment and environment and ...? Just test them!

Hope I didn't come across as wise-ass on this one for I simply like to provide some answers for you guys!

For a better game of pool,

Eddie Robin

I am aware the level of pool on az is much higher then your average novice player, that's why the general question.
  
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05-25-2009, 12:25 PM

The Predator website extensively use Flash technology. Your web browser's plug-in for Flash may not be working correctly.

Here is information from both companies on how their shafts are constructed, so you can make a comparison.
http://www.obcues.com/construction.html
http://www.predatorcues.com/predator...shaft_demo.php

I recall reading somewhere that marketing accounted for 90% of Nike's operating costs. Pricing behind the Z2 is probably what the company perceived the market will bear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paksat View Post
First i'd like to understand the difference in soft/med/hard tips. I love using draw whenever I can since I get the most control out of it ( just me though ) so which is best for that and why?

Another thing -

I can't get the predator site to load for me and i'm probably going to be making my investment within the next few days if all goes well.

I'm just wondering what the difference in construction is between the OB-2and the z2 is. The z2 is considerably more expensive, is there a reason?


My ego is writing checks that my stroke can't cash.
  
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MitchAlsup
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05-25-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by paksat View Post
First i'd like to understand the difference in soft/med/hard tips. I love using draw whenever I can since I get the most control out of it ( just me though ) so which is best for that and why?
The material that transfers energy between the stick and the cue-ball is called chalk. Calcium Carbonate crystals have a certain hardness {and some of the die colors (and manufacturing processes) modify this to a small extent}.

A cue tip impacting a (stationary) cue ball will compress to a certain area {based on the hardness of the tip, the weight of the cue-stick, the weight of the cue-ball, and the speed of impact}. It is this area, covered with chalk, that grips the cue ball and imparts spin durring the millisecond of contact. The chalk grips the tip (leather) and simultaneously grips the surface of the cue ball {Putting microscopic pits on the surface of the ball}. This area is overwhich the power and spin are transmitted.

Thus, the tip you will want is a function of how hard you (want to, have to) hit the cue ball, how much spin you (want to) impart to the cue ball, and what kind of chalk you (want to, have to) use. This is a 3-way (minimum) optimization problem.

Soft tips absorb power while transfering energy from the stick to the CB. Hard tips transfer more energy. Soft tips mushroom regularly and need rather constant maintanence, and wear out rapidly. Hard tips hardly mushroom, last a long time, but you have to chalk with religious furvor. The ideal for many players is a tip that hard enough to allow enough energy to be transmitted, soft enough to allow control of spin transfer, needs little maintanence, and is rather forgiving with respect to chalking. For many players this will be a tip that measures in the 76-84 range on the durrometer.

For a more wide open game such as 9-ball, you might want a (slightly) harder tip to gain power. For a game more like 14.1 continuous, you might want a (slightly) softer tip that gives you the touch and delicate control this game demands.

The kind of leather {cow, pig, water-buffalo}, how it is tanned, how the rest of the tip is made, and how hard it ends up--all vary the feel and the 'hit' of that tip--even if that tip measures the same (as another) on the durrometer.
  
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paksat
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05-25-2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MitchAlsup View Post
The material that transfers energy between the stick and the cue-ball is called chalk. Calcium Carbonate crystals have a certain hardness {and some of the die colors (and manufacturing processes) modify this to a small extent}.

A cue tip impacting a (stationary) cue ball will compress to a certain area {based on the hardness of the tip, the weight of the cue-stick, the weight of the cue-ball, and the speed of impact}. It is this area, covered with chalk, that grips the cue ball and imparts spin durring the millisecond of contact. The chalk grips the tip (leather) and simultaneously grips the surface of the cue ball {Putting microscopic pits on the surface of the ball}. This area is overwhich the power and spin are transmitted.

Thus, the tip you will want is a function of how hard you (want to, have to) hit the cue ball, how much spin you (want to) impart to the cue ball, and what kind of chalk you (want to, have to) use. This is a 3-way (minimum) optimization problem.

Soft tips absorb power while transfering energy from the stick to the CB. Hard tips transfer more energy. Soft tips mushroom regularly and need rather constant maintanence, and wear out rapidly. Hard tips hardly mushroom, last a long time, but you have to chalk with religious furvor. The ideal for many players is a tip that hard enough to allow enough energy to be transmitted, soft enough to allow control of spin transfer, needs little maintanence, and is rather forgiving with respect to chalking. For many players this will be a tip that measures in the 76-84 range on the durrometer.

For a more wide open game such as 9-ball, you might want a (slightly) harder tip to gain power. For a game more like 14.1 continuous, you might want a (slightly) softer tip that gives you the touch and delicate control this game demands.

The kind of leather {cow, pig, water-buffalo}, how it is tanned, how the rest of the tip is made, and how hard it ends up--all vary the feel and the 'hit' of that tip--even if that tip measures the same (as another) on the durrometer.
awesome post
  
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Eddie Robin
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05-25-2009, 02:25 PM

[QUOTE=paksat;1837966]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Robin View Post


I am aware the level of pool on az is much higher then your average novice player, that's why the general question.
Hi again Pakstat,

I'd think the more others knows about a subject the more specific and technical you could be with your question. Only example that came to mind at this moment (wish I could think of a better example) is that of someone asking their teacher how high is the sky compared to how high are those cumulous clouds on these hot, windless days.

By the way, from reading a couple of other replies on this thread, I feel I should point out for you and others that wish to learn, that, despite how it may seem that way when thinking of a home run in baseball or a long drive on a golf course, it is not always true that the harder the tip the more force will get transfered. Seems that a great many have wrongly believed that to be true for a great many years.

I'd suggest all who care much about this point re hardness of cuetip resulting in a greater percentage of developed force being transmitted to the cueball should consult a book on physics or an expert on the subject. There are formulas for these things for those that don't easily see it for themselves. Besides, though I do seem to get along pretty well on simply using what logic I have, my own formal education pretty much stopped when out sick in fifth-grade grammar school.

There are several other very important factors in addition to a tip's hardness-softness but I'm definitely not going to provide an entire chapter from my work on the subject; especially since it's not even close to completion. I hope to one day get to complete my books on fundamentals, diamond systems, and equipment, but I'm currently struggling just to finish books on the much simpler subjects of strategies and shot repertoires of the various games.

As I've previously mentioned in reply to asking which tip is best for drawing the ball (meaning you and with your cue with your cueball); test a few.

I certainly hope at least a few will be helped by this post.

Eddie Robin

Last edited by Eddie Robin; 05-25-2009 at 02:35 PM. Reason: Wish to improve wording in fourth paragraph.
  
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05-25-2009, 04:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by paksat View Post
First i'd like to understand the difference in soft/med/hard tips. I love using draw whenever I can since I get the most control out of it ( just me though ) so which is best for that and why?

Another thing -

I can't get the predator site to load for me and i'm probably going to be making my investment within the next few days if all goes well.

I'm just wondering what the difference in construction is between the OB-2and the z2 is. The z2 is considerably more expensive, is there a reason?
The best general discussion I've seen on this topic is here on Wolfbite Cue Solutions excellent site.
  
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05-25-2009, 04:54 PM

most play with a med or harder tip. price dosnt matter since its not the tip its the stroke that will make a cue ball draw. you can learn to full table draw using a G10 tip but will loose some feel. I would say just find one you like and stick to it. I think its best to stick to brands that have been arround a while or buy 20 tips so you always have the same to replace old ones.
  
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