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CTE and 90/90 are geometrically the same?
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LAMas
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CTE and 90/90 are geometrically the same? - 06-21-2010, 11:10 PM

06-19-2010, 09:21 AM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAMas
Thanks for the vid.
It looks more like 90/90 aiming to me, which doesn't have the shift. He starts off at the side of the CB and not CTE.
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Originally Posted by SpiderWebComm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHtRjbHZU2g

CTE and 90-90 are the same system geometrically. In fact, for that shot--- 90-90 and Pro1 look identical. They're ALL the same system - with the pivots coming in from different sides.


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06-22-2010, 04:08 AM

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=172165
  
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06-22-2010, 06:34 AM

CTE and 90-90 are geometrically the same? How can you say that LAMas? Everyone knows that a pivot is nothing more than a simple turning movement, either to the left or to the right. A pirouette, however, is a strikingly more graceful and exciting spin that incorporates an ever so subtle lifting of the foot with the big toe extended outward, and for the more advanced player there is sometimes a small hop. Geometrically the same. I think not.


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Thanks for the link Spidey - I missed it back then.
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Thanks for the link Spidey - I missed it back then. - 06-22-2010, 09:02 AM

What You mention about adjusting the bridge and or pivot for distance between the CB and OB is fundamental to the discussion - these could be subtle and/or infinite.

I appreciate your observations of the similarities of all of these methods.

That we replace the Ghost Ball with the CB is key.

Thanks.
-----------------------------------
CTE - Pro1 - RonV 90/90: All the same system (Long) - 01-19-2010, 09:34 PM

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I'm not sure if anyone has ever discussed this in any detail, so I thought I would try. If nothing else, those who pivot-aim will find it interesting.

It's obvious no secret on here that I'm a pivot aimer. People PM me all the time asking in private which system is the best. I always try to tell people that it depends on how they perceive and how they learn. Some people pick up CTE/Pro1 right away and others can't get comfortable. The same people try Ron's 90-90 and voila - they pick it up right away (or vice-versa).

I think I'm lucky in the fact that I picked up all of them fairly quickly and have spent thousands of hours over the past four years mastering them and figuring out why/how they work. The conclusion I'm come to is: they are all identical at their core. Only the pivot direction and base reference changes from system to system.

Personally, I think learning how to pivot aim has been the single strongest thing I ever learned in pool - and there really isn't a close second.

First, some basics:

CTE:

Center-to-edge (CTE) is a pivot aim system that uses the CB center to OB outside edge line as it's base reference. While sighting this line, the shooter bridges from an offset position and pivots back to the CB center. When executed properly, the result is the solution for the shot.

Pro1:

The same as CTE, but allows the shooter to always pivot from the same side. For right-handers, this includes left-to-right pivots and for left-handers this would be right-to-left pivots.

Ron Vitello's 90-90:

Ron's system uses three sighting reference lines: CB inside edge to OB inside edge (called 90-90 alignment), CB inside edge to OB center (called 90-half alignment), and CB inside edge to OB outside edge (called 90-reverse-90 alignment). The shooter aligns their cue to an above reference line and hip-pivots their way to the center of the CB.

Therefore, the core difference between the systems is that CTE/Pro1 is based on visual references such as the center-to-edge line (CTEL) and identifying the outermost edge; whereas Ron's system is based on cue alignments (I would call it stick-aiming with a pivot).

Let's talk about a thicker cut to the left (more than a 1/2 ball hit). With Pro1, the shooter probably sees the shot something like this:



I put these balls on a grid so you can get a feel for the table rotating as you move around the CB - NOT because it's "part of the system."

A mistake a lot of players make is to look straight down the CTEL. One really must accurately identify the CTEL by looking across it slightly. When you move your body to the outside (technically, moving your head to the outside), your vision of the shot rotates around the OB as the center. Your new view of the shot is this:



As you step into the shot as a right-hander, your cue is at the left edge of the CB and you're pivoting to center (blue line):



When you look at the 90-90 cue alignment, you'll see they're nearly identical (edge-to-edge).

Let's check out a thin cut to the right - something less than a half-ball hit.

With CTE, the shooter sees something like this:



The shooter's body/cue is positioned on the right-side of the CTEL at the CB edge (blue line) prior to pivoting. It's also a 90-half alignment with Ron Vitello's system.

The pivot motion was never really discussed in detail until a year or two ago. One would quickly figure out that you can't rotate the cue in your bridge (as if there were a nail through the wood and into the table where the cue touches your skin-- a true rotation). By doing so, you either miss the ball completely or end up hitting the OB square.

With CTE/Pro1, the distance of the shot determines how one pivots along the shot arc (the arc of a circle formed with the bridge as the center and OB as the edge). With Ron's system, one would "hip-pivot." When you get within a diamond or so, the shooter will sometimes have to go from a 90-90 alignment to a 90-half alignment when hip-pivoting. The reason for this is when you hip pivot, you're performing a flatter arc - which is in fact a CTE pivot for a longer shot. Because you'll undercut a close-quarters 90-90 shot, the 90-half alignment is required to pocket the ball with a hip-pivot.

Hip pivoting is really repeatable and is a super technique--- I use it with "this system" except in close quarters. Instead, however, of making a sighting adjustment, I simply pivot my back hand and hip at the same time (I like to keep eye/cue alignment) and make a "harder/curvier" turn to center--- paying close attention to the shot arc. Once you understand the proper bridge placement (bridgehand spot - a Jim Scott term) and understand how to arc your pivot - many don't pivot at all----they "air pivot" by rotating along the shot arc from the bridge point while standing up and slide up to the CB along this line.

I'm not going into all of the other overlaps because this post would take me all day to make and all day to read. I'm merely throwing it out there for those who may not know - and letting them experiment on their own.

In conclusion, they're all the same system. Their methods might differ slightly and they're taught differently; but they are the same. After all of this, I'm in awe of guys like Ron and Stan for really innovating when it comes to this stuff.

With Ron, he didn't even know CTE before he made his system which is really, really amazing to be able to come up with that on your own. Not to mention coming up with the "hip pivot."

With Stan, to recognize that it was possible to always pivot from one side is amazing as well. However, even though he was the first (from what I know) American to pivot from the same side - guys like Bustamante were doing it all along.

How Hal came up with this core information is mind boggling (just my humble opinion).

Hal used to always tell me to poke my head out to see the outermost edge... and I never really understood what he was trying to tell me until a year or so ago. That's what clued me into looked across the CTEL rather than down it. Interestingly enough, if any of you play with Perfect Aim and are knowledgeable with the above-mentioned systems, you'll discover his eye placements are equal to the CTE head position required to sight the outermost edge. Gene is finding his overlap from this position --- he just finds the solution in a different manner.

All in all, each method is almost like a limit to a core equation. Or, a dialect to the same language. The more dialects you know, the better you can communicate on the table - if that makes sense.

I understand there is a large group of people who would read this and say "why?" Just put it in the hole. The answer is because the foundation is a repeatable pre-shot routine that sinks every shot. The foundation is formed by identifying perceivable points instead of using intuition (which can sometimes fail). Over a period of time, the foundation manifests from something mechanical-feeling (when new) to something quite natural and second nature (feel). The difference being that the feel you experience with this information is less fallible because it's based on definitive points that are easy for all to perceive.

Anyways, it's late now and I've been typing for a while. I hope those who are experimenting with this type of stuff find it useful. Sadly, I'm sure the usual suspects will derail the thread. I'm not interested in debating the systems, I'm not interested in instructing on the hows/whys of the systems, I'm not interested in arguing in general. I may not even post anymore in the thread because I know how I get. Just wanted to put out some good info since I haven't in a while.

Spidey


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06-22-2010, 09:49 AM

I think there's some bad info in my post regarding pivot arcs. However, I stand by my original post. They're all the same system mathematically.
  
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06-22-2010, 12:03 PM

I do hope this discussion continues down its current path. It is civil and insightful.

Through discussions like this one, I have my best chance to find what I've been looking for, and that would be a simple way to teach CTE. I don't know if such a thing can be done, but as long as the discussions keep cropping up, I'm going to keep trying.

Roger


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06-22-2010, 01:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
I do hope this discussion continues down its current path. It is civil and insightful.

Through discussions like this one, I have my best chance to find what I've been looking for, and that would be a simple way to teach CTE. I don't know if such a thing can be done, but as long as the discussions keep cropping up, I'm going to keep trying.

Roger
If you're serious Roger maybe you would like to ask some specific questions.
  
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06-22-2010, 02:45 PM

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Originally Posted by SpiderWebComm View Post
I think there's some bad info in my post regarding pivot arcs. However, I stand by my original post. They're all the same system mathematically.
I think that your description is valid. What I get from it is that from the original CTEL, the bridge hand is moved to the side either with a shift or a pivot from the hip (pivoting from the bridge will only get you back the the CTEL) to a new location. From this new location, one pivots at the bridge back to the center of the CB - you are now aiming just off of the edge of the OB.

Depending on where you shift or hip pivot the bridge, you can achieve thin and thick cuts and at any distance between the CB and OB - so all shift and pivot systems are "geometrically" the same. I imagine that one can create a mental look up table for all of the new bridge locations required for all cut angles and CB to OB separations....and with practice, store that in one's mind to cover all senarios.

In another thread, you mentioned that when looking for the edge of the OB to assume the CTEL position, that you indicated that while looking at the OB from above, the edge of interest is at 6:00 where 12:00 is the edge that faces the pocket of interest - is this a correct assumption?

Thanks.


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06-22-2010, 04:39 PM

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If you're serious Roger maybe you would like to ask some specific questions.
There have been many specific questions asked by various people over the courses of the various CTE threads, and yet it appears that there have been few specific answers. I honestly haven't wanted to repeat questions that others may have already asked and had answered. It seems that repeating questions like that only angers people more than they already are.

I used to stay out of these CTE threads because I thought that sooner or later someone would write a definitive description of it that could be understood by anyone, and then everyone could settle down and choose their favorite aiming system. But that hasn't happened. Instead, nothing ever gets settled, and everyone takes offense at every question asked, or every comment made. And I'm talking about both sides here.

So, if I nave one specific question concerning CTE at this point it would have to be: Why are people so passionate about their belief, or unbelief, in this system?

Roger


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06-22-2010, 04:50 PM

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Originally Posted by LAMas View Post
I think that your description is valid. What I get from it is that from the original CTEL, the bridge hand is moved to the side either with a shift or a pivot from the hip (pivoting from the bridge will only get you back the the CTEL) to a new location. From this new location, one pivots at the bridge back to the center of the CB - you are now aiming just off of the edge of the OB.

Depending on where you shift or hip pivot the bridge, you can achieve thin and thick cuts and at any distance between the CB and OB - so all shift and pivot systems are "geometrically" the same. I imagine that one can create a mental look up table for all of the new bridge locations required for all cut angles and CB to OB separations....and with practice, store that in one's mind to cover all senarios.

In another thread, you mentioned that when looking for the edge of the OB to assume the CTEL position, that you indicated that while looking at the OB from above, the edge of interest is at 6:00 where 12:00 is the edge that faces the pocket of interest - is this a correct assumption?

Thanks.
No, 12:00 is where you're staring...6:00 is the opposite, the line coming straight back at you. I envision a vertical line in my vision (perpendicular to the table)...it's an ETC view with your eyes to the inside of the line for thin shots. For thick shots, I'm looking for a certain CB/OB overlap depending on the pivot.
  
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06-22-2010, 05:00 PM

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Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
There have been many specific questions asked by various people over the courses of the various CTE threads, and yet it appears that there have been few specific answers. I honestly haven't wanted to repeat questions that others may have already asked and had answered. It seems that repeating questions like that only angers people more than they already are.

I used to stay out of these CTE threads because I thought that sooner or later someone would write a definitive description of it that could be understood by anyone, and then everyone could settle down and choose their favorite aiming system. But that hasn't happened. Instead, nothing ever gets settled, and everyone takes offense at every question asked, or every comment made. And I'm talking about both sides here.

So, if I nave one specific question concerning CTE at this point it would have to be: Why are people so passionate about their belief, or unbelief, in this system?

Roger
Because it makes aiming easy and accurate and repeatable. To us every shot looks the same, if it doesn't play a safe.
  
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06-22-2010, 05:06 PM

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Because it makes aiming easy and accurate and repeatable. To us every shot looks the same, if it doesn't play a safe.
That is a fact,well put cookie man
  
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06-22-2010, 08:39 PM

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Originally Posted by SpiderWebComm View Post
No, 12:00 is where you're staring...6:00 is the opposite, the line coming straight back at you. I envision a vertical line in my vision (perpendicular to the table)...it's an ETC view with your eyes to the inside of the line for thin shots. For thick shots, I'm looking for a certain CB/OB overlap depending on the pivot.
Do I follow?
When you're down on the shot looking at the OB down table, and looking at it like the face of a clock, then 12:00 is up toward the ceiling and 6:00 is where the OB is resting on the slate - that line would be perp to the table?

ETC would be edge of the OB to the center of the CB? Is the cue aiming where your eyes are also looking "to the inside of the line (toward the center of theee OB?) and perhaps to the outside for "certain CB/OB overlap" pre pivot?

Thanks.


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06-22-2010, 10:39 PM

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Originally Posted by cookie man View Post
Because it makes aiming easy and accurate and repeatable. To us every shot looks the same, if it doesn't play a safe.
That's a very good example of a generic answer to a specific question. But maybe you misunderstood my question (which is another common problem in these threads), so I'll word it a different way: Why do some people get so disgusted with other people who do not agree with their belief, or unbelief, in CTE?

If we could get at the root of the disgust, we might be able to get to the root of CTE.

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06-23-2010, 05:45 AM

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Originally Posted by LAMas View Post
Do I follow?
When you're down on the shot looking at the OB down table, and looking at it like the face of a clock, then 12:00 is up toward the ceiling and 6:00 is where the OB is resting on the slate - that line would be perp to the table?

ETC would be edge of the OB to the center of the CB? Is the cue aiming where your eyes are also looking "to the inside of the line (toward the center of theee OB?) and perhaps to the outside for "certain CB/OB overlap" pre pivot?

Thanks.
Almost, no.

12:00 is on the same vector as your line of sight. 6:00 is the vector coming back to your nose. The vertical line (perpendicular to the table) is how i line up the overlap between two balls (so I know where the 12:00 to 6:00 line is when a ball is in the way).

I know this sounds like a lot, but it's cake and I'm a bad describer of things. I think a player has to do something like this to be REALLY accurate on sighting alignments involving overlaps (like 90-90 or whatever).

JoeT might be working on a training device for something like this, maybe.
  
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