10ball rule question - really confused?

marek

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi!
If this issue was solved here before I apologize, couldnt find anything on this one by az search....
During recent 10ball tournament I encountered this situation:
my opponent called safety on the 1ball which he played but he caromed off the 1ball and potted 6ball and left me hooked. As he potted 6ball I returned him the shot. Thats where it started: according to him I had to shoot, on the other hand I argued that I had the choice if I want to shoot. Finally we decided that the situation is of no importance at this stage of tournament as it was round robin stage and we both secured our spot in knockout stage already. And as the majority of other players thought I was right I returned him the shot.
Now here it becomes interesting. I am reading the WPA rules right now and here is the important part:

9.6 Safety
The shooter, after the break at anytime may call “safety” which permits him to make contact with the legal object ball without pocketing a ball and end his inning. However, if the shooter pockets the legal object ball the incoming player has the option to play the shot as left, or hand it back to his opponent. (See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)

9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

After reading paragraph 9.6 I am starting to think that my opponent was right because the rule 9.7 applies only when the legal object ball is pocketed. As the term the legal object ball is used in the first sentence of 9.6 in the place of the lowest numbered ball I assume it couldnt be applied on the other balls - if it could it would mean that if I call safety I can play any ball on the table....???

Can anyone tell me what is the right call in this situation? Right now I am rather convinced that my opponent was right....
Marek
 

allenjktx

Registered
"the legal object ball without pocketing a ball" You were correct, the legal object ball is refering to the lowest numbered ball on the table. You needed to highlight the next four words also.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hi!
If this issue was solved here before I apologize, couldnt find anything on this one by az search....
During recent 10ball tournament I encountered this situation:
my opponent called safety on the 1ball which he played but he caromed off the 1ball and potted 6ball and left me hooked. As he potted 6ball I returned him the shot. Thats where it started: according to him I had to shoot, on the other hand I argued that I had the choice if I want to shoot. Finally we decided that the situation is of no importance at this stage of tournament as it was round robin stage and we both secured our spot in knockout stage already. And as the majority of other players thought I was right I returned him the shot.
Now here it becomes interesting. I am reading the WPA rules right now and here is the important part:

9.6 Safety
The shooter, after the break at anytime may call “safety” which permits him to make contact with the legal object ball without pocketing a ball and end his inning. However, if the shooter pockets the legal object ball the incoming player has the option to play the shot as left, or hand it back to his opponent. (See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)

9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

After reading paragraph 9.6 I am starting to think that my opponent was right because the rule 9.7 applies only when the legal object ball is pocketed. As the term the legal object ball is used in the first sentence of 9.6 in the place of the lowest numbered ball I assume it couldnt be applied on the other balls - if it could it would mean that if I call safety I can play any ball on the table....???

Can anyone tell me what is the right call in this situation? Right now I am rather convinced that my opponent was right....
Marek

If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. So I better not comment on these "rules" for Ten Ball.
 

marek

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. So I better not comment on these "rules" for Ten Ball.

I see you have the same view on the clarity of 10b rules. But tell me Jay: do you know how this situation should be viewed? What is the right call? Thx
 

marek

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"the legal object ball without pocketing a ball" You were correct, the legal object ball is refering to the lowest numbered ball on the table. You needed to highlight the next four words also.

Well, if the legal object ball is refering to the lowest numbered ball on the table my opponent was right, highlighting the next four words would help my opponent view!!! :D
 

KoolKat9Lives

Taught 'em all I know
Silver Member
You kind of infer that the tourney was using WPA rules but you don't state for sure. There are many rules for 10 ball. Please clarify the rules governing this tourney.

TX Express?
WPA?
SBE?
 

marek

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You kind of infer that the tourney was using WPA rules but you don't state for sure. There are many rules for 10 ball. Please clarify the rules governing this tourney.

TX Express?
WPA?
SBE?


I am from Europe, we play by EPBF rules which are the same as WPA.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The way I view called safes in 10 ball is the same as in 8 ball. You may pocket a ball while calling a safe, and the other guy has to shoot from where it lays. The accidental pocketing of the 6 should not change anything. If he called the othe ball, missed and made the 6 and left you hooked, you would have the option of passing the shot.
 

dareads

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
(See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)
9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

From what I read there, you were correct. He didn't make an intended ball but made a "Wrongfully Pocketed ball" which according to rule 9.7, you would still have the option.
 
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KoolKat9Lives

Taught 'em all I know
Silver Member
(See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)
9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

From what I read there, you were correct. He didn't make an intended ball but made a "Wrongfully Pocketed ball" which according to rule 9.7, you would still ahve the option.


That's the way I read this somewhat confusing 'legalese' too. And without reading it I'd have believed you were correct also under WPA rules.

However, I'm not 100% sure. Surely someone will post a definitive ruling.

BTW, :thumbup: to both players for not sweating it and understanding the circumstances.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
I see you have the same view on the clarity of 10b rules. But tell me Jay: do you know how this situation should be viewed? What is the right call? Thx

First of all, I don't think you should be able to call "safe" in Ten Ball. Kind of destroys the nature of the game. After that everything else is irrelevant. Just a bunch of marks on a page. Now do you want to know how I really feel? :grin:
 

cigardave

Who's got a light?
Silver Member
(See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)
9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

From what I read there, you were correct. He didn't make an intended ball but made a "Wrongfully Pocketed ball" which according to rule 9.7, you would still ahve the option.

I agree with dareads.

The intent of the WPA 10-ball rules is to minimize the luck factor in a rotation game. It does a pretty good job.

Although the rules could be clearer (to add to 9.6 the inadvertant pocketing of other than the "legal object ball" after having called a safety), clearly the intent of the WPA 10-ball rule set is the opponent has the option of making his opponent shoot again.

Qualifier... this is just my opinion and I am not a recognized referee.
 

ScottR

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Like others, I am not a certified ref, but . . . . .

I side with your opponent. He executed a legal safety and inadvertently pocketed another ball. Safe is good, your shot.

If you read rule 9.7, it says "If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball....". I underlined the "and" because I read that you have to do both for the rule to be invoked. And your opponent did not do the first part - he legally hit the lowest ball.

Scott <<== imho
 

dareads

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you read rule 9.7, it says "If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball....". I underlined the "and" because I read that you have to do both for the rule to be invoked. And your opponent did not do the first part - he legally hit the lowest ball.

Scott <<== imho

My only problem with this logic is that if the player didn't hit the lowest ball first then it would be a foul and result in BIH (or kitchen, not sure).
 

SKUNKBOY

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Like others, I am not a certified ref, but . . . . .

I side with your opponent. He executed a legal safety and inadvertently pocketed another ball. Safe is good, your shot.

If you read rule 9.7, it says "If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball....". I underlined the "and" because I read that you have to do both for the rule to be invoked. And your opponent did not do the first part - he legally hit the lowest ball.

Scott <<== imho

I'm thinking the phrase "If a player misses his intended ball and pocket," could be read as he misses his called shot...meaning he called the five in the side but did not make the five in the side.

dareads would be correct, if he didn't hit the lowest ball on the table first, he would give up BIH.

L8R...Ken
 
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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
As I read the rules, any time the player pockets a ball without pocketing the called ball, he may be asked to shoot again.

The rules of 10 ball need clarification, badly.
 

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
Hi!
If this issue was solved here before I apologize, couldnt find anything on this one by az search....
During recent 10ball tournament I encountered this situation:
my opponent called safety on the 1ball which he played but he caromed off the 1ball and potted 6ball and left me hooked. As he potted 6ball I returned him the shot. Thats where it started: according to him I had to shoot, on the other hand I argued that I had the choice if I want to shoot. Finally we decided that the situation is of no importance at this stage of tournament as it was round robin stage and we both secured our spot in knockout stage already. And as the majority of other players thought I was right I returned him the shot.
Now here it becomes interesting. I am reading the WPA rules right now and here is the important part:

9.6 Safety
The shooter, after the break at anytime may call “safety” which permits him to make contact with the legal object ball without pocketing a ball and end his inning. However, if the shooter pockets the legal object ball the incoming player has the option to play the shot as left, or hand it back to his opponent. (See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)

9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

After reading paragraph 9.6 I am starting to think that my opponent was right because the rule 9.7 applies only when the legal object ball is pocketed. As the term the legal object ball is used in the first sentence of 9.6 in the place of the lowest numbered ball I assume it couldnt be applied on the other balls - if it could it would mean that if I call safety I can play any ball on the table....???

Can anyone tell me what is the right call in this situation? Right now I am rather convinced that my opponent was right....
Marek

You are correct. Since he was playing a safety, rule 9.6 is administered. The circumstances in rule 9.6 do not apply to your situation (that is, he did not pocket the one ball). But rule 9.6 goes on to state that rule 9.7 also applies during a safety. And rule 9.7 states basically that if any ball goes down other than a called ball in a called pocket, the incoming shooter has the option to give back the table.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I would add the following for clarification...
I would not add that clarification. "Any time" is general enough.

The section on calling safe is a problem, though. Why would anyone ever want to call a safety? So far as I see there is no advantage in calling safe. If you don't pocket a ball, it is the same as if you had missed. If you do pocket a ball, your opponent can have you shoot again. You may as well always call a ball. Call the 10 in the pocket it will most likely reach if an earthquake happens.

Or maybe I'm just reading the rules wrong.
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
Hi!
If this issue was solved here before I apologize, couldnt find anything on this one by az search....
During recent 10ball tournament I encountered this situation:
my opponent called safety on the 1ball which he played but he caromed off the 1ball and potted 6ball and left me hooked. As he potted 6ball I returned him the shot. Thats where it started: according to him I had to shoot, on the other hand I argued that I had the choice if I want to shoot. Finally we decided that the situation is of no importance at this stage of tournament as it was round robin stage and we both secured our spot in knockout stage already. And as the majority of other players thought I was right I returned him the shot.
Now here it becomes interesting. I am reading the WPA rules right now and here is the important part:

9.6 Safety
The shooter, after the break at anytime may call “safety” which permits him to make contact with the legal object ball without pocketing a ball and end his inning. However, if the shooter pockets the legal object ball the incoming player has the option to play the shot as left, or hand it back to his opponent. (See 9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls which also applies during a safety.)

9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.

After reading paragraph 9.6 I am starting to think that my opponent was right because the rule 9.7 applies only when the legal object ball is pocketed. As the term the legal object ball is used in the first sentence of 9.6 in the place of the lowest numbered ball I assume it couldnt be applied on the other balls - if it could it would mean that if I call safety I can play any ball on the table....???

Can anyone tell me what is the right call in this situation? Right now I am rather convinced that my opponent was right....
Marek

Marek,

If you're going by WPA rules, if the legal object ball is not pocketed in the called pocket, but it, or any other ball, is pocketed elsewhere, then the shot passes to the oppenent, and the incoming player can choose to shoot, or pass it back.

That's the way we played the Mezz 10 ball and it worked fine.

Calling "safe" only is important to clearly indicate to your opponent that you are not calling anything. It's probably better to just call something.

Chris

Ps. worst way to play 10 ball is to allow slop - then you may as well play 9 ball and get it over with faster.
 
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