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Question about tables - 09-26-2010, 05:59 AM

I've read this board long enough to know the members' preference for Diamond tables (and Gold Crowns, to a lesser extent).

So here's my question: If I start with a standard three-piece slate table, recover it in Simonis tournament cloth and replace the cushions with Artemis, then tighten the pockets, how will that table play differently than the Diamond?

I accept that it will. But I don't understand why. Thanks.

Last edited by 9BallPaul; 09-26-2010 at 06:01 AM. Reason: spelling
  
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09-26-2010, 06:11 AM

rail demention and pocket depth/cut make the Diamonds play different.....not better IMO but different.


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09-26-2010, 06:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9BallPaul View Post
I've read this board long enough to know the members' preference for Diamond tables (and Gold Crowns, to a lesser extent).

So here's my question: If I start with a standard three-piece slate table, recover it in Simonis tournament cloth and replace the cushions with Artemis, then tighten the pockets, how will that table play differently than the Diamond?

I accept that it will. But I don't understand why. Thanks.
I just had that done to my GC II, and the table plays great. I wish I could say why its different, but I don't have much exp. on a diamond to compare. I can tell you this though, make sure you get somebody real good to do the job. They screwed mine up twice before getting it right.
  
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09-26-2010, 06:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9BallPaul View Post
I've read this board long enough to know the members' preference for Diamond tables (and Gold Crowns, to a lesser extent).

So here's my question: If I start with a standard three-piece slate table, recover it in Simonis tournament cloth and replace the cushions with Artemis, then tighten the pockets, how will that table play differently than the Diamond?

I accept that it will. But I don't understand why. Thanks.


If the GC is set up correct...They play better than a Diamond IMO.

They may end up with the same cloth and same rubber, but there are other "angles" that cause the Diamond to bank short and be "overly" bouncy vs the GC that plays more true.

Either table can be made to play correct. If you have the right mechanic do the job. The only static differences would be the Diamond having flat rails and the GC having domed rails...The GC having metal corner castings and the Diamond having nothing there.....etc....If you like the cosmetics of one vs the other, that could sway your opinion of how the table plays (I guess)

I can't think of anyone that would know more than RKC on how they both play and can be changed via set up.

I would suggest either checking the ask the mechanics section and/or conatacting him.


KEN
  
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09-26-2010, 07:40 AM

I guess you can put "diamond spec'd rails" on any table, but copying their pocket shelves may be an issue. How do you extend a pocket shelf (so you can get more balls to hang? ) Maybe RKC can fuse an extension onto them, but that seems a but nutz...
  
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09-26-2010, 07:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9BallPaul View Post
I've read this board long enough to know the members' preference for Diamond tables (and Gold Crowns, to a lesser extent).

So here's my question: If I start with a standard three-piece slate table, recover it in Simonis tournament cloth and replace the cushions with Artemis, then tighten the pockets, how will that table play differently than the Diamond?

I accept that it will. But I don't understand why. Thanks.
What you should understand (beyond cosmetics) is that you want your table to play correctly which is more a function of the proper geometry and dimensions of the pocket angles and cushions and not so much the brand of cloth or cushion. Diamond did a good job in making tables that play right yet they still look at ways to be better. With the right table mechanic and a top notch setup you may end up with a table that plays better then a Diamond.
  
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09-26-2010, 12:43 PM

If Diamnond Tables play so good, why were they recently revamped to play differently (aka - Better)??


"Then again...you may be the Antichrist"
  
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09-26-2010, 01:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by poolhustler View Post
If Diamnond Tables play so good, why were they recently revamped to play differently (aka - Better)??
It's an ethic called Kaizen. You can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen

Diamond is one of the few that actually still tries to improve their product, not just outsource it overseas in order to make them cheaper. And they listen to the players too.

Also, just food for thought, but I read all the time here of Gold Crown owners paying a capable mechanic to "Diamondize" their table to make it play like the pro table. Never once on this site or anywhere else for that matter have I read or heard of a Diamond owner having a mechanic work on their Diamond pro table to make it play like a Gold Crown. I know I wouldn't!
  
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09-26-2010, 02:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalapus logan View Post
It's an ethic called Kaizen. You can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen

Diamond is one of the few that actually still tries to improve their product, not just outsource it overseas in order to make them cheaper. And they listen to the players too.

Also, just food for thought, but I read all the time here of Gold Crown owners paying a capable mechanic to "Diamondize" their table to make it play like the pro table. Never once on this site or anywhere else for that matter have I read or heard of a Diamond owner having a mechanic work on their Diamond pro table to make it play like a Gold Crown. I know I wouldn't!

TAP TAP TAP great post.

I have moved my cue shop out of my 3 car oversized garage, I now have it back and am going to have a small work area (tools for home and lawn mower ext...) I will also make it my man-den. I own 4 bar boxes, I'm keeping 1 valley and selling the rest, I am also planning on buying a 9ft diamond pro-am with 4 3/8in pockets or 4.5 either way I'll be happy. I have an opportunity to purchase 9ft amf tables for $800 each or a GC3 for $1500, after new cloth, balls, rail rubber(diamond specs), I would spend far less than a Diamond. But like many others I have delusions of grandeur. I want a diamond because I plan on competing at the derby in the 1-pocket division. I haven't played in about 3 years, except 2-4 tournaments because of charity or friends asked me to. Any way I played 1-pocket against a shortstop/top amature who is a good 1-pocket player and beat alot of top talent. Any way we played on a diamond and I fileted him. So that adds to my ego alittle. But that is what the top players play on in a huge % of the tournaments. That's why I have a valley barbox instead of a diamond, 95% of all tournaments I'll play in either here in the Midwest or in vegas are going to be on a valley table. Not to mention In my opinion, DIAMOND pro-ams are beautiful. I want a black/charcol/graphite or what ever they call the black pro-ams. I hate furniture grade pool tables, small rails no were to put your hand.

anyway, diamonds are the top shelf, resist them as you may there here to stay. I also like gabriel tables, and Kim steel.


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09-26-2010, 02:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRKNRUN View Post
If the GC is set up correct...They play better than a Diamond IMO.

They may end up with the same cloth and same rubber, but there are other "angles" that cause the Diamond to bank short and be "overly" bouncy vs the GC that plays more true.

Either table can be made to play correct. If you have the right mechanic do the job. The only static differences would be the Diamond having flat rails and the GC having domed rails...The GC having metal corner castings and the Diamond having nothing there.....etc....If you like the cosmetics of one vs the other, that could sway your opinion of how the table plays (I guess)

I can't think of anyone that would know more than RKC on how they both play and can be changed via set up.

I would suggest either checking the ask the mechanics section and/or conatacting him.
One other major thing is the deep shelf on the Diamond, for better or worse.

Diamonds are great tables but I prefer the GC.


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09-26-2010, 02:38 PM

I might be wrong, but I don't think the OP's question was asking about making a GC like a Diamond. He said "standard 3 piece slate table".

Using those words, he might be talking about the home market tables that sell for 1500 new from the no-name brands. If thats the case, then you are starting with an inferior frame and design. Switching the rail rubber and cloth won't prevent the balls from moving when you bump the table, for example.

I don't own a table, but if I ever was given a diamond for free, I'd trade it for a GC in a heartbeat, or pay someone to put GC rubber/rail angle/etc, so that the balls bounce off the rails properly like they do on a GC and every other high quality commercial table but Diamond.
  
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09-26-2010, 04:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalapus logan View Post
Also, just food for thought, but I read all the time here of Gold Crown owners paying a capable mechanic to "Diamondize" their table to make it play like the pro table. Never once on this site or anywhere else for that matter have I read or heard of a Diamond owner having a mechanic work on their Diamond pro table to make it play like a Gold Crown. I know I wouldn't!

That is not always the case.....If the GC is set up correct it plays better than a Diamond (IMO) there are some subtle differences in the set up process..(slightly different sub-angles)

The problem is....there are only a handful of mechanics that know exactly what to do to and/or have the ability to make the "correct" changes.

It does not end with just changing the rubber and cloth...There are some farily precision sub changes that need to be made.

The end result though is NOT a GC that plays like a Diamond....Rather it is a VERY top shelf playing GC that plays better than a Diamond.


KEN
  
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09-26-2010, 05:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusedtoberich View Post
I might be wrong, but I don't think the OP's question was asking about making a GC like a Diamond. He said "standard 3 piece slate table".

Using those words, he might be talking about the home market tables that sell for 1500 new from the no-name brands. If thats the case, then you are starting with an inferior frame and design. Switching the rail rubber and cloth won't prevent the balls from moving when you bump the table, for example.

I don't own a table, but if I ever was given a diamond for free, I'd trade it for a GC in a heartbeat, or pay someone to put GC rubber/rail angle/etc, so that the balls bounce off the rails properly like they do on a GC and every other high quality commercial table but Diamond.
If you ever get that Diamond table given to you, let me know. I'll BUY a Gold Crown for the trade...
  
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09-26-2010, 05:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRKNRUN View Post
That is not always the case.....If the GC is set up correct it plays better than a Diamond (IMO) there are some subtle differences in the set up process..(slightly different sub-angles)

The problem is....there are only a handful of mechanics that know exactly what to do to and/or have the ability to make the "correct" changes.

It does not end with just changing the rubber and cloth...There are some farily precision sub changes that need to be made.

The end result though is NOT a GC that plays like a Diamond....Rather it is a VERY top shelf playing GC that plays better than a Diamond.
I think that the bottom line here is to pick a table that has six pockets. Everything else is secondary. Perhaps the Gold Crown vs. Diamond debate is like the Ford vs. Chevy debate of yester year (BTW, I wouldn't drive either one, for what it's worth!). The discussion is probably not dissimilar to the Rorschach inkblot test, people just see what they want to see (or perhaps it's people SEE whatever they are USED to seeing).

Having said that, I worked and saved for 5 years to buy my table. I am a man that does my due dilligence and considers every conceivable angle before making a purchase. After playing on both and researching both, for my hard earned dollars, there was no choice. Diamond pro it was. When I wear this table out two lifetimes from now, I might actually have to buy another one.

Cheers and happy shooting on whatever you pick...
  
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09-26-2010, 06:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalapus logan View Post
I think that the bottom line here is to pick a table that has six pockets. Everything else is secondary. Perhaps the Gold Crown vs. Diamond debate is like the Ford vs. Chevy debate of yester year (BTW, I wouldn't drive either one, for what it's worth!). The discussion is probably not dissimilar to the Rorschach inkblot test, people just see what they want to see (or perhaps it's people SEE whatever they are USED to seeing).

Having said that, I worked and saved for 5 years to buy my table. I am a man that does my due dilligence and considers every conceivable angle before making a purchase. After playing on both and researching both, for my hard earned dollars, there was no choice. Diamond pro it was. When I wear this table out two lifetimes from now, I might actually have to buy another one.

Cheers and happy shooting on whatever you pick...
Lots of ihtelligent responses to my opening post. This one put the biggest smile on my face.
  
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