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Values at the pool tournament - 10-23-2010, 12:26 PM

Theoretical Pool Tournament

64 Players

10 Legends
10 Rising Stars
24 Nobody's
20 Professionals

Tournament Arena Capacity 1000 people
Legend attracts 100 people
Rising Star attracts 50 people
Professionals attract 5 people.

Rent for Arena: $2500 daily
Popcorn: $1
Soda: $1
Alcohol: $5
Tickets: $10

If 10 legends play on the same day income from tickets is $10,000. If those fans are hungry or thirsty the minimum income is $1 the maximum income is $28 (four of each item). Total income from food and drink is $28,000.
For that day when all legends play income is $38,000, deduct arena fees and the remaining is $35,500. How many days should they play?

Big tournaments can make the most money from food, drink and tickets. I would post code so that you can adjust the numbers. I don't want to argue the different values, use a spreadsheet program.
  
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10-23-2010, 12:37 PM

?????????????????
  
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10-23-2010, 12:48 PM

Theoretical questions;

What venue do you know of that lets you take money from their food and drink sales?

How much is it going to cost you to pay for the legends to appear?

How much is the tournament staff going to cost?

Promotion and advertising isn't cheap either, how much will that cost.

How many tables will you need? and how much do you think it will cost to have them delivered, set up and made playable?

Who is going to clean those tables and balls in between rounds?

BTW, I don't need a spread sheet macro to figure this out.


What about the Streaming? that costs also.

The above costs for the 6 day tournament can run as low as $15,000 and has high as $25,000 depending on the quality of your production.

what if the Legends don't show up?


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10-23-2010, 01:07 PM

..............

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10-23-2010, 01:40 PM

I don't plan on running a tournament. I am trying to piece together an assessment of what tournament directors manage. Mostly it is the door fees and spectators that like to drink. Everything else is just a means to get them there and sell to them.

If your going to run a business of a pool tournament all it is is a rally to sell drinks and popcorn. The tricks that get people there can range from girl players to beefy dudes or old time all americans, the tricks don't mean as much as the sales for the day.

My question is how much should tournament directors keep for next years expenses and their costs versus giving it out to the playing field. I am talking percentage of door fees. The players get fans through the door. They should be entitled to a percentage of door income. The players get fans hungry by providing great matches. Should they get a piece of the food income?

How much of non player entry fees is used to ensure proper health of players via medical diagnosis? And what about players with families and children? Players sacrifice a lot attending those tournaments.

I am not against rich people wanting to watch great pool players. I am interested in how much tournament directors share with their players.

My decomposition consists of rich people that like watching pool, tournament directors that turn profits from gathering crowds and players that gamble. Of the three the TD touches the money the most. Should the three groups know how the money changes hands or how much gets transferred?

From the start the player payouts are determined. If the tournament generates more than enough money to break even are the players entitled to a piece of that action?

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10-23-2010, 03:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil View Post
My first question would be- where are you going to get 1,000 spectators from???
Consider the income is the same from 1000 spectators if 500 spectators are charged two fees for day and night sessions.
  
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it's not nearly as lucrative as you think . . .
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it's not nearly as lucrative as you think . . . - 10-23-2010, 03:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil View Post
My first question would be- where are you going to get 1,000 spectators from???
and that's the biggest question plaguing professional pool today .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum View Post
I don't plan on running a tournament. I am trying to piece together an assessment of what tournament directors manage. Mostly it is the door fees and spectators that like to drink. Everything else is just a means to get them there and sell to them.

If your going to run a business of a pool tournament all it is is a rally to sell drinks and popcorn. The tricks that get people there can range from girl players to beefy dudes or old time all americans, the tricks don't mean as much as the sales for the day.

My question is how much should tournament directors keep for next years expenses and their costs versus giving it out to the playing field. I am talking percentage of door fees. The players get fans through the door. They should be entitled to a percentage of door income. The players get fans hungry by providing great matches. Should they get a piece of the food income?

How much of non player entry fees is used to ensure proper health of players via medical diagnosis? And what about players with families and children? Players sacrifice a lot attending those tournaments.

I am not against rich people wanting to watch great pool players. I am interested in how much tournament directors share with their players.

My decomposition consists of rich people that like watching pool, tournament directors that turn profits from gathering crowds and players that gamble. Of the three the TD touches the money the most. Should the three groups know how the money changes hands or how much gets transferred?

From the start the player payouts are determined. If the tournament generates more than enough money to break even are the players entitled to a piece of that action?
wow , where to start ? How about Venue ?
Most of the larger tournaments I've been in are held at existing pool halls - excuse me , I meant Family Entertainment Centers , and the profit from the concessions stay with the host location , not the Tournament (or tour) director.
The entry fees are generally repaid to the players PLUS some amount "added" , such as $1500 added or $2500 added . Therefore , no percentage is held back for anything , including 'medical diagnosis' . There is no health plan in pool .
As far as the TD's profit center , there is
1) door revenues
2) vendor percentages or fees (cues , cases , repair , paraphrenalia , etc)
3)Corporate sponsorship (McDermott , Olhausen , Ozone , Diamond , Simonis . . . . )
sadly , as yet , there is no huge corporate "angel" such as Coca-Cola , Powerade , Sears , etc
It's not a rally to sell drinks & popcorn
You are correct - from the start , the player payouts are determined - and those are the stakes that they agreed to play for . It doesn't matter if the door income is $200 or $20,000 - they agreed to payback+$2500/places paid .
I've watched several very competitive tours fail in the last few years - some that I was doing rather well in !
Why did they fail ? Because the spectator end of pool doesn't generate the kind of interest or income that you're dreaming it does .

That's why Spike hasn't replaced Monday Night RAW with Monday Night Runout ! yet
  
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10-23-2010, 03:55 PM

Theoretical questions;

What venue do you know of that lets you take money from their food and drink sales?
The ones where you can invite private catering.

How much is it going to cost you to pay for the legends to appear?
Good point, but if the players are loyal and know the tournament director it could be as cheap as room and flight.

How much is the tournament staff going to cost?
$8k at the low and $15K at the high

Promotion and advertising isn't cheap either, how much will that cost.
A few ads in different publications less than a few thousand.

How many tables will you need? and how much do you think it will cost to have them delivered, set up and made playable?
High Cost over 20K

Who is going to clean those tables and balls in between rounds?
Players mostly.

What about the Streaming? that costs also.
A young guy with a computer and internet charges could be as low as $1K.

The above costs for the 6 day tournament can run as low as $15,000 and has high as $25,000 depending on the quality of your production.

what if the Legends don't show up?
That is a primary concern of a tournament director.

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10-23-2010, 03:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ridinda9 View Post
and that's the biggest question plaguing professional pool today .....


wow , where to start ? How about Venue ?
Most of the larger tournaments I've been in are held at existing pool halls - excuse me , I meant Family Entertainment Centers , and the profit from the concessions stay with the host location , not the Tournament (or tour) director.
The entry fees are generally repaid to the players PLUS some amount "added" , such as $1500 added or $2500 added . Therefore , no percentage is held back for anything , including 'medical diagnosis' . There is no health plan in pool .
As far as the TD's profit center , there is
1) door revenues
2) vendor percentages or fees (cues , cases , repair , paraphrenalia , etc)
3)Corporate sponsorship (McDermott , Olhausen , Ozone , Diamond , Simonis . . . . )
sadly , as yet , there is no huge corporate "angel" such as Coca-Cola , Powerade , Sears , etc
It's not a rally to sell drinks & popcorn
You are correct - from the start , the player payouts are determined - and those are the stakes that they agreed to play for . It doesn't matter if the door income is $200 or $20,000 - they agreed to payback+$2500/places paid .
I've watched several very competitive tours fail in the last few years - some that I was doing rather well in !
Why did they fail ? Because the spectator end of pool doesn't generate the kind of interest or income that you're dreaming it does .

That's why Spike hasn't replaced Monday Night RAW with Monday Night Runout ! yet
An alternative answer to why they fail is because the tournament director does not re-invest profits into maintenance and expansion. Starbucks overdid the expansion. And Netscape underdid expansion. Somewhere in the middle would be safe ground. That means a lot of preparing expenses ahead of time for players or decreasing costs of arena or increasing people in attendance.

The fans do play a role but that is cutting into the expenses of the tournament director. The predetermined payouts for the players does not suffer that risk, unless a director blows all the cash on hookers and drugs, have they had events in Vegas before?

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10-23-2010, 04:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil View Post
My first question would be- where are you going to get 1,000 spectators from???
Go to Philippines. Oh wait, they dun have money
  
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10-23-2010, 04:30 PM

You raise some good points, but it is very far from as easy as it sounds...


Theoretical questions;

What venue do you know of that lets you take money from their food and drink sales?
The ones where you can invite private catering.

Very few places will let you make the money from concessions, it's their business, they want the money


How much is it going to cost you to pay for the legends to appear?
Good point, but if the players are loyal and know the tournament director it could be as cheap as room and flight.

You want to pay the legends to show up? Where is this money going to come from? Most players are lucky just to have good enough events to play in where 3/4th place might cover their expenses. getting to 3/4th is not easy.


How much is the tournament staff going to cost?
$8k at the low and $15K at the high

Again, where does this money come from? Promoters pocket, whether 1000 tickets are sold or 50.



Promotion and advertising isn't cheap either, how much will that cost.
A few ads in different publications less than a few thousand.
ONE full page ad in major billiards publication, sure.


How many tables will you need? and how much do you think it will cost to have them delivered, set up and made playable?
High Cost over 20K

Don't forget renting the venue and setting up all that seating for your 1000 spectators. You're going to also need some good lighting, which typically involves some extra scaffolding, etc... Not many players are set up to host pool tournaments.


Who is going to clean those tables and balls in between rounds?
Players mostly.
Mostly not.

What about the Streaming? that costs also.
A young guy with a computer and internet charges could be as low as $1K.
Rely on the talented people already doing this in the industry. They know how it's done, they're good at it, and they bring their own "following" of fans. Cutting out people who rely on this work for income so you can hire some "young guy with a computer" is part of the problem in this, or any other industry. To get good work and reliable service, you have to pay for it. People deserve to make money when they are good at what they do.

The above costs for the 6 day tournament can run as low as $15,000 and has high as $25,000 depending on the quality of your production.

what if the Legends don't show up?
That is a primary concern of a tournament director.
Yes it is, and what's your entry fee? Doubtful that 24 unknowns are going to post any decent amount to play when 10 legends and 10 rising stars are already in. You need a lot of top players to draw 1000 spectators. Getting players to show up is not as easy as one would think.Bigger prize money all the way down the line (not just one big bubble for first place) would fix this problem, and getting that money is the problem.



Also, don't forget your "added money" to the prizepool. Many top players will not show up unless at least 20K is added... Of course you could just promise that a ton of money will be added, and then just not pay it out citing that you just never made it as planned, that seems to be a trend.

Without adding the money, which gets the top players, you will have nowhere close to 1000 spectators.

Tournament directors do not make huge profits, especially not enough for people to speculate whether they should start "sharing" how much they make after they break even. It's a business, like any other. There are many hard working devoted people out there doing it just because they love the game and want to see it succeed. And hopefully make a living along the way. A successful director should earn money, he or she is also helping bring money and attention to the players and the game, their profit is their paycheck for their work. It's a win-win situation actually, the players can play for more money and the promoter can enjoy financial success and stability doing something they love.

If directing/promoting big pool tournaments was extremely lucrative and simple, you would have a lot more big pool tournaments, believe that.

Unlike a traditional job, if the event does not bring the spectators, or there is a snowstorm, or another event gets scheduled at the same time (pulling players away), or any other various factors occur, the promoter loses out. Not the players - well, if the promoter doesn't pay them, then yeah, them too. The fans might miss out on a good event, but they don't share the financial,mental, and physical drain either.

Hope this helps shed some light on some of your questions. In theory it sounds simple enough, but it is a lot harder than selling soda and popcorn to 1000 thirsty fans.


Allen Jr.

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10-23-2010, 04:38 PM

Like all startups the problem of capital must be solved. Who has capital and where do you get it? Aside from that the details fill themselves in.

It is as simple as buying a bottle of soda for $1. And selling cups of soda for $0.25. One bottle is enough to fill twenty cups. Where do you get the $1 and who do you sell to?

Oddly enough these are the same arguments that apply to taxes. A bunch of people spend a certain amount of money on advertising to get elected. Then they have to decide who to spend the tax money on. Sometimes its for sweetheart contracts other times its for vacations on private yachts. How much maintenance does a school really need?

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10-23-2010, 05:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum View Post
Like all startups the problem of capital must be solved. Who has capital and where do you get it? Aside from that the details fill themselves in.

It is as simple as buying a bottle of soda for $1. And selling cups of soda for $0.25. One bottle is enough to fill twenty cups. Where do you get the $1 and who do you sell to?

Oddly enough these are the same arguments that apply to taxes. A bunch of people spend a certain amount of money on advertising to get elected. Then they have to decide who to spend the tax money on. Sometimes its for sweetheart contracts other times its for vacations on private yachts. How much maintenance does a school really need?

My belief is internally. That is, we need events with bigger entry fees, so the payouts can be higher, and the top players will make more money in the long run... Problem is, no one wants to put up big money when they see who else already has. Trust me, there are top players who will shy away from posting a big entry fee once they see other top players in the field.

If you did have, say a $5000 entry fee, with 32 players. That gives you a $160,000 prize pool. If you just paid 16 players (win one match, you're paid) that would be an average of $10,000 each. Thats a $5000 profit for a 1-day event. Of course, no one wants to do that, so suppose:

You pay 9-16 $6500 each, a $1500 profit for winning 1 match. That leaves you $108,000 for the last 8 players.

Say 5-8 gets $8000 each, which is a $3000 profit for winning 2 matches. That leaves you $76,000 for the last 4 players.

Just to be simple, lets just say the last 4 get this:
4th: $10,000
3rd: $15,000
2nd: $20,000
1st: $31,000

Keep in mind, this is a very simplified structure, single elimination.. Whole thing could be done in 2 days. None of the above profits are bad for 2 days of playing pool.

Yes, players risk more, but the amount they can win is substantially more as well. How many 32 man events pay $10,000 for 4th place, or in this case winning 3 matches? Over time, more money would be in players pockets, and they could move together aggregately increasing their winnings.

What some people don't realize is that to make more, they're going to have to risk more, at least at first. poker has proven that this model works. Poker is only exciting to watch because of the huge money, which pool does not have. If poker tournaments were being played for $10,000 prize pools, no one would care to watch. Anything is fun to watch for big money. Poker players line up out the door to drop $2000 for an entry fee, and there is zero added money, in fact the house charges a 10-15% commission. Of course, difference is, anyone with half a brain can win a poker tournament. Pool is vastly more difficult.

Anyway, just some of my thoughts...


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10-23-2010, 05:20 PM

Player expenses are different some have families others don't. Sometimes younger players need money more than older players.

There should be a players only tournament. One that doesn't involve any associated fame. But a black tournament invite only. The goal of the tournament would be to identify player's strengths and weakness, essentially a skills tournament.

Aside from the risk of money I want to see players taking risks at the table.

No trash talking, no sharking only pool players and pool shooting.
  
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10-23-2010, 05:38 PM

Tournament Format:

Cut or straight in shot 1 point
One rail Bank shot 2 points
One rail Kick shot 2 points
One ball kiss shot 2 points
Jump shot 2 points
Use of multiple rails for a bank or kick, or multiple balls for a kiss or combination of jump with bank, kick or kiss 5 points .

Point scoring system within players matchup, matchups are negotiated for choice of game.

Players score a predetermined amount of points based on entry skill test.

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