Squirt & Deflection
Old
  (#1)
PoolSleuth
Banned
PoolSleuth is a splendid one to beholdPoolSleuth is a splendid one to beholdPoolSleuth is a splendid one to beholdPoolSleuth is a splendid one to beholdPoolSleuth is a splendid one to beholdPoolSleuth is a splendid one to beholdPoolSleuth is a splendid one to behold
 
PoolSleuth's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,327
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sonora Desert, U.S.A.
   
Squirt & Deflection - 05-08-2006, 06:59 AM

Just got this in am e-mail from a friend. you all my like to read it.

Here's a quick test to see if the cue is worth looking at further. It
tests the amount of "squirt" or deflection on extreme english shots.
Many expensive sticks fail this test. This idea can also be used to
compensate for squirt for some sticks, and when it is used for that
it is sometimes called "backhand english" since the back (grip) hand
is moved over to get side spin. The "aim-and-pivot" method of squirt
compensation:
For each cue stick, there is a particular length of bridge for
which you can aim straight at a close object ball and then pivot
about your bridge hand and shoot straight through the new line and
hit the object ball full. (You can also use this (very old) method
for non-full shots too, but a full shot is best for finding the
right bridge length.) For a stick you want to measure, just find
the needed bridge length. A hint: if you shoot softly at a ball
far away, the cue ball will curve on its way to the object ball,
and your measurement will be useless. Do not give the cue ball the
time or distance to curve. Shoot firmly. Use as much side spin
as you can without miscuing. The shorter the bridge, the more
squirt the stick has. ("Close object ball" means about a diamond
away.) The cue ball should sit in place spinning like a top when
it hits the object ball full.
For a long pivot length, the bridge is too long to be a comfortable
pivot. Arrange to have the pivot over the rail, and use your back
hand to hold the stick at the pivot while the bridge hand moves.
An alternative is to slide the bridge hand forward after the pivot
to a more comfortable bridge length. Take care to keep the stick
aligned in the new direction.
If several cues are available, including house cues, compare them.
Squirt is the most important characteristic of a cue stick after solid
construction. Less squirt is usually better, especially if you use
something close to "parallel aiming" on spin shots. More squirt means
more aiming compensation on any shot with side spin. The one possible
advantage of squirt is that if the pivot length is the same length as
the bridge, it can compensate for inaccuracies left-to-right in the final
stroke.



The place that documents squirt for a number of cues is the following web
site.




Http://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#2)
pete lafond
pete.l@slipstic.com
pete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond repute
 
pete lafond's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,560
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Rochester, NY
   
05-08-2006, 07:23 AM

Interesting. But even more interesting is that I finally realize why I use BHE. I use it to keep the CB on-track. I also change up my stroke to accommodate a shorter or longer bridge. I guess these are some of the many things we take for granted.

Amazing that we make these adjustments over time and experience without a 2nd thought. I also notice that when I pick up a house cue or another cue that is not mine, I try and figure out the stick within the beginning shots. I do not pay attention to this, I just do it. And some sticks take a little longer to work out for me.


PUT NOTHING ON YOUR CUE SHAFT. The tacky culprits are slickers, fillers, burnishing agents, waxes and polishes. These compounds become sluggish breaking down during play due to moistures from your hands and the air. Result is a sticky grit magnet. SlipStic Conditioner - VISIT www.slipstic.com for more info. Just natural cue shaft feel without the tackiness...it just works. (Perfect when using a glove or powder too) SlipStic. DuPont - Miracles of Science. Also visit www.RICOforKIDS.org

Last edited by pete lafond; 05-08-2006 at 07:26 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#3)
Colin Colenso
<-- My Kids
Colin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond repute
 
Colin Colenso's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 7,419
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Australia
   
05-08-2006, 08:43 AM

This is a pretty simplistic explanation of how BHE relates to pivot point and squirt characteristics for cues. It's a good place to start, but there is much more too it.

To name a few:
Squirt changing with speed.
Throw changing with speed.
Throw changing with different spins.


Anyway, I think it's a very useful concept to get to know, so that a player can work out what causes them to miss or make a ball.

Interestingly, the conclusion that low squirt cues are the best for BHE is maybe not a good idea. The great majority of shots played with BHE, especially for beginners and medium level players are quite low speed shots with CB and OB within a couple of feet of each other.

For these shots, with a standard bridge length of 12 to 15 inches, a low squirt cue aligning for natural roll pot angle before pivoting will miss many shots. IE shots too thick and OE shots too thin. For these shots, a high squirt cue will make them go in much more often, without making additional adjustments.

When it comes to firm and power shots with BHE, that's when a low squirt cue is more predictable.

Anyone else who has observed / measured this please pipe up before I get egged


Quote:
"The first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - Lord Kelvin

Last edited by Colin Colenso; 05-08-2006 at 08:50 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#4)
TellsItLikeItIs
AzB Silver Member
TellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 548
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Oct 2005
   
05-08-2006, 09:59 AM

Why do you guys use the term "squirt"? I fully understand the generally accepted meaning of the word, but it's so, so confusing to many players.

I saw a bottle of bar-b-que sauce squirt once, but never a pool cue ;-)
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#5)
JohnnyP
AzB Silver Member
JohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond repute
 
JohnnyP's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,108
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: GARDEN GROVE, CA
   
05-08-2006, 10:09 AM

I agree, I don't like the term squirt. The cue ball is deflected by the cue from the aimng point.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#6)
mikepage
AzB Gold Member
mikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond repute
 
mikepage's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 4,028
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Fargo, ND
   
05-08-2006, 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoolSleuth
Just got this in am e-mail from a friend. you all my like to read it.

Here's a quick test to see if the cue is worth looking at [...]
Ahh, I recognize those words. They're from the RSB FAQ that Bob Jewett maintains. I'm pretty sure they're Bob Jewett's words.

Here is the whole response to question 7 from http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html

*****************
7. ** How should I choose a cue?

In general, it is difficult to tell if you would like a cue stick just by
reading about it. Even the terms that different people use to describe
these characteristics (hard, soft, harsh, stiff, forgiving, well-balanced,
etc.) are subjective and difficult to quantify. Some of the important
things can be quantified (length, weight, balance point, shaft taper,
shaft diameter, squirt), but they're not the whole story. And if you are
a beginner, or seriously working on your game for the first time, you can
expect your own preferences to change as your game matures.

Robert Byrne says (updated for inflation as of 2005):

Getting a two-part cue will add about $70 to the price. You can
get one with good wood, good workmanship, a twine or leather
grip, and some decoration for $100 to $150. If you pay more than
$200, you'll be paying for ornamentation and brand name. A good
tip is probably more important than the cue. Shun a cue that's
more than two parts, has a screw-on tip, is painted in festive
colors, or is made in Taiwan. Made in Japan is OK, the Adam
line, made there, is one of the best. Get the best tips you can,
the return on the money you spend is greater there than anywhere
else.

Bob Jewett says:

1. The plainest butt is probably also the most solid. If you want
fancy inlay work, consider Baroque antiques, not cues, unless you
are collecting rather than playing with them.

2. Beyond being solid and the right weight and length, and perhaps
having the style of grip you prefer, there is little the butt does
for the cue.

3. The tip is important. Many tips are no good. Tips can be
replaced; learn how to do it yourself. The tip has more effect on
how the cue plays than the butt.

4. The shaft is the most important part of the cue. Shafts are
relatively cheap. Some highly regarded cue makers make unusable
shafts.

Here's a quick test to see if the cue is worth looking at further. It
tests the amount of "squirt" or deflection on extreme english shots.
Many expensive sticks fail this test. This idea can also be used to
compensate for squirt for some sticks, and when it is used for that
it is sometimes called "backhand english" since the back (grip) hand
is moved over to get side spin. (The definition of squirt is in
the glossary (Answer #1) above.)

The "aim-and-pivot" method of squirt compensation:

For each cue stick, there is a particular length of bridge for
which you can aim straight at a close object ball and then pivot
about your bridge hand and shoot straight through the new line and
hit the object ball full. (You can also use this (very old) method
for non-full shots too, but a full shot is best for finding the
right bridge length.) For a stick you want to measure, just find
the needed bridge length. A hint: if you shoot softly at a ball
far away, the cue ball will curve on its way to the object ball,
and your measurement will be useless. Do not give the cue ball the
time or distance to curve. Shoot firmly. Use as much side spin
as you can without miscuing. The shorter the bridge, the more
squirt the stick has. ("Close object ball" means about a diamond
away.) The cue ball should sit in place spinning like a top when
it hits the object ball full.

For a long pivot length, the bridge is too long to be a comfortable
pivot. Arrange to have the pivot over the rail, and use your back
hand to hold the stick at the pivot while the bridge hand moves.
An alternative is to slide the bridge hand forward after the pivot
to a more comfortable bridge length. Take care to keep the stick
aligned in the new direction.

If several cues are available, including house cues, compare them.

Squirt is the most important characteristic of a cue stick after solid
construction. Less squirt is usually better, especially if you use
something close to "parallel aiming" on spin shots. More squirt means
more aiming compensation on any shot with side spin. The one possible
advantage of squirt is that if the pivot length is the same length as
the bridge, it can compensate for inaccuracies left-to-right in the final
stroke.

Here is a further description of how to use the aim-and-pivot method
to compensate for squirt when using side spin:

The squirt pivot point is the point on the cue such that if
you first aim using a dead center hit, then pivot the cue
about that point to apply left or right hand english, the
cueball will still take off in the original aiming direction.
The lower the cue's squirt characteristic, the further from
the tip will be this pivot point.

If the pivot point of a very low squirt cue is all the way
back at the grip hand, you would aim center-ball and then
move the bridge hand (i.e. pivot about the grip hand) to
eliminate the necessity for compensating for the squirt.

If the pivot point of a very high squirt cue were located
where the bridge hand is normally placed, you would aim
center-ball and then move the grip hand left/right for the
english (i.e. pivot about the bridge hand).

*************

mike page
fargo
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#7)
Colin Colenso
<-- My Kids
Colin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond reputeColin Colenso has a reputation beyond repute
 
Colin Colenso's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 7,419
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Australia
   
05-08-2006, 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TellsItLikeItIs
Why do you guys use the term "squirt"? I fully understand the generally accepted meaning of the word, but it's so, so confusing to many players.

I saw a bottle of bar-b-que sauce squirt once, but never a pool cue ;-)
I don't know the origin of the term or how it gained general acceptance exactly.

But other terms used to decribe the effect have been:
Deflection: To vague as many types of deflection
Cue Ball or Cue Stick Deflection: Too Long
Throw: (Used in Snooker countries) Easily confused with ball to ball related throw.

So squirt is easy to remember and specific.


Quote:
"The first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - Lord Kelvin
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#8)
jsp
AzB Silver Member
jsp has a reputation beyond reputejsp has a reputation beyond reputejsp has a reputation beyond reputejsp has a reputation beyond reputejsp has a reputation beyond reputejsp has a reputation beyond reputejsp has a reputation beyond reputejsp has a reputation beyond reputejsp has a reputation beyond reputejsp has a reputation beyond reputejsp has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 6,838
vCash: 2600
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NC
   
05-08-2006, 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyP
I agree, I don't like the term squirt. The cue ball is deflected by the cue from the aimng point.
I believe it was Robert Byrne who coined the term "squirt", to differentiate it between the deflection of the cue stick at impact with the CB. Him being a civil engineer and all, he didn't think it was appropriate to use "deflection" to describe a phenomenon that is not mechanical or structural.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#9)
TellsItLikeItIs
AzB Silver Member
TellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 548
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Oct 2005
   
05-08-2006, 10:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyP
I agree, I don't like the term squirt. The cue ball is deflected by the cue from the aimng point.
Thanks JohnnyP. I was starting to wonder if there was anyone else that thought the same as I. The term just seems so non-descriptive when speaking of pool cues or how they perform. If my cue ever starts "squirting", I'm bringing it to a Doctor to have it's bladder checked out

Next time I visit California, I'll treat you to an In-N-Out burger. You can even have a squirt of catsup or mustard on it if you like
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#10)
TellsItLikeItIs
AzB Silver Member
TellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond reputeTellsItLikeItIs has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 548
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Oct 2005
   
05-08-2006, 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsp
I believe it was Robert Byrne who coined the term "squirt", to differentiate it between the deflection of the cue stick at impact with the CB. Him being a civil engineer and all, he didn't think it was appropriate to use "deflection" to describe a phenomenon that is not mechanical or structural.
Yes, you're correct, it was Byrne that started it. I also have a background in engineering (mechanical), but I don't agree with it being a proper term.

The game and all that is involved in it is difficult enough even without the tricky words that have been created in the past years. I'll stay with the basics and continue to enjoy the game.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#11)
pete lafond
pete.l@slipstic.com
pete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond reputepete lafond has a reputation beyond repute
 
pete lafond's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,560
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Rochester, NY
   
05-08-2006, 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyP
I agree, I don't like the term squirt. The cue ball is deflected by the cue from the aimng point.
I think I agree also though I'm sure there might be some good reasoning to differentiate from other pool used term.

Some considerations to events that take place; The ball is being pushed off line. The cue shaft flexes. The CB curves. Spin causes or minimizes throw. (The shooter misses.) Just a few important ones.

.
.


PUT NOTHING ON YOUR CUE SHAFT. The tacky culprits are slickers, fillers, burnishing agents, waxes and polishes. These compounds become sluggish breaking down during play due to moistures from your hands and the air. Result is a sticky grit magnet. SlipStic Conditioner - VISIT www.slipstic.com for more info. Just natural cue shaft feel without the tackiness...it just works. (Perfect when using a glove or powder too) SlipStic. DuPont - Miracles of Science. Also visit www.RICOforKIDS.org
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#12)
JohnnyP
AzB Silver Member
JohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond reputeJohnnyP has a reputation beyond repute
 
JohnnyP's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,108
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: GARDEN GROVE, CA
   
05-08-2006, 12:18 PM

I first saw the term "squirt" reading a Jim Meador archive. Have to search and see if he borrowed it from Byrne.

Yep: http://www.billiardworld.com/squirt.html
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#13)
mikepage
AzB Gold Member
mikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond reputemikepage has a reputation beyond repute
 
mikepage's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 4,028
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Fargo, ND
   
05-08-2006, 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyP
I first saw the term "squirt" reading a Jim Meador archive. Have to search and see if he borrowed it from Byrne.

[...]
Here's what Byrne said on the issue back in 1998 in RSB"

**************************
Sat, Feb 14 1998 12:00*am
Email: "Robert Byrne" <b...@byrne.org>
[...]

When I was writing BYRNE'S STANDARD BOOK OF POOL AND BILLIARDS in 1977,
only a scattering of top players and analytical players were aware of or
thought about the way the cueball path diverges slightly away from the cue
line when sidespin is used. *At the time, the word used for the phenomenon
was deflection. *I don't think the phenemenon or the word had ever been
mentioned anywhere in billiard publications. *When a player named Jack
Leavitt told me that he called the phenomenon "squirt," I embraced it and
used it in the book on page 264, naming Levitt as the coiner in the early
editions. * (The first edition came out in the fall of 1978.) *I liked the
word because of its punchy sound and because I resisted using the word
deflection; as a civil engineer I knew that deflection had been used for a
hundred years at least to mean "bending." *When a structural member bends
under stress, the bend is measured as "deflection." * I didn't want to blur
the meaning of a useful technical term by applying it to a cueball path. *
Ron Shepard in a recent post says that Bob Meucci claims to have coined the
word deflection to mean squirt "about twenty years ago," but, as you can
see, the word deflection came first. *Shepard also paraphrases Meucci as
being opposed to using the word deflection to mean the bending of the cue,
which is odd, because that is in fact the technical and well-established
meaning of the word. * As far as what causes squirt, it may well be that
Mr. Meucci's high-speed films prove his points, in which case I will stand
corrected.
* * * R. Byrne

mike page
fargo
  
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.