In every single straight pool tournament, you will hear this about the guy who wins.

CreeDo · Sep 17, 2013

"This guy plays 14.1 all wrong but he just shoots so straight he gets away with it."

I've heard that said about Thorsten Hohmann, John Schmidt, Efren, Mike Dechaine,
probably a half dozen others. The funny thing is, often the guys saying it can actually
play so you can't just write it off.

If these guys play it wrong, who plays it right?
Anyone who isn't a senior citizen?

Maybe patterns are overrated. Discuss.

Nostroke · Sep 17, 2013

CreeDo said:
"This guy plays 14.1 all wrong but he just shoots so straight he gets away with it."

I've heard that said about Thorsten Hohmann, John Schmidt, Efren, Mike Dechaine,
probably a half dozen others. The funny thing is, often the guys saying it can actually
play so you can't just write it off.

If these guys play it wrong, who plays it right?
Anyone who isn't a senior citizen?

Maybe patterns are overrated. Discuss.

It was certainly said about Manalo when he won the NJ State Championship-Daz and many more also of course.

sjm · Sep 17, 2013

CreeDo said:
"This guy plays 14.1 all wrong but he just shoots so straight he gets away with it."

I've heard that said about Thorsten Hohmann, John Schmidt, Efren, Mike Dechaine,
probably a half dozen others. The funny thing is, often the guys saying it can actually
play so you can't just write it off.

If these guys play it wrong, who plays it right?
Anyone who isn't a senior citizen?

Maybe patterns are overrated. Discuss.

Good topic. First of all, let's note that Thorsten and John Schmidt are good pattern players, though perhaps just a bit less technically perfect than some of the living old timers like Ray Martin, Allen Hopkins, Jimmy Rempe, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Dan DiLiberto, Dallas West, Lou Butera, Bobby Hunter, Eddie Kelly and Dan Barouty.

Efren, Dechaine, and also Johnny Archer, all of whom are capable of very long runs, are certainly less skilled pattern players than John and Thorsten, and this is where I think there is some truth in your observations that "patterns may be overrated." In fact, back in the golden days of straight pool, the legendary Luther Lassiter was the only true example of a player who could run balls forever despite not being one of the best few pattern players. Of course, some feel Lassiter was the straightest shooter of all time.

In this year's Dragon 14.1 event, of the current generation of players, I thought Appleton and Immonen played the patterns particularly well, but of course, I may biased since I didn't watch all the matches.

One difference between today and yesteryear is that slower cloth and lower quality balls made it much harder back in the day to open the balls up on a break-shot, and the break shot had to be hit a bit harder. That's why good pattern play was so critical, because break shots could be missed when hit very hard, and back in the day, there were far more missed break shots. Hence, getting very close to the break ball was crucial.

Simonis 860 and Centennial and Aramith balls make it much easier to open the clusters today in 14.1, even when the break shot is attempted from several feet away from the object ball. As ideal position is not as important on the break shot today, the patterns don't have to be quite as good as back in the day.

To sum, good pattern play is important, but less critical than in days gone by. That is why it is so often true today that "straight shooting" can be a sufficient substitute for optimal table management.

RedEyeJedi · Sep 17, 2013

sjm said:
Good topic. First of all, let's note that Thorsten and John Schmidt are good pattern players, though perhaps just a bit less technically perfect than some of the living old timers like Ray Martin, Allen Hopkins, Jimmy Rempe, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Dan DiLiberto, Dallas West, Lou Butera, Bobby Hunter, Eddie Kelly and Dan Barouty.

Efren, Dechaine, and also Johnny Archer, all of whom are capable of very long runs, are certainly less skilled pattern players than John and Thorsten, and this is where I think there is some truth in your observations that "patterns may be overrated." In fact, back in the golden days of straight pool, the legendary Luther Lassiter was the only true example of a player who could run balls forever despite not being one of the best few pattern players.

One difference between today and yesteryear is that slower cloth and lower quality balls made it much harder back in the day to open the balls up on a break-shot, and the break shot had to be hit a bit harder. That's why good pattern play was so critical, because break shots could be missed when hit very hard, and back in the day, there were far more missed break shots. Hence, getting very close to the break ball was crucial.

Simonis 860 and Centennial and Aramith balls make it much easier to open the clusters today in 14.1, even when the break shot is attempted from several feet away from the object ball. As ideal position is not as important on the break shot today, the patterns don't have to be quite as good as back in the day.

To sum, good pattern play is important, but less critical than in days gone by.

You, sir, have nailed it. :thumbup:

I still love to hear George Fels commentate and ream players on 80 ball runs for what truly seem to be obvious, glaring mistakes. Makes me envious of the old timers, with videos of classic style perfect pattern 14.1 few and far between.

bdorman · Sep 17, 2013

The people who say it lack perspective. They think the only "right" way is the one they use. They don't understand that people are unique individuals who see things through their own lenses.

The commentator says one pattern is right based on his experience and ABILITY. He chooses a pattern because it avoids a long cut shot. Maybe the player is very comfortable with long cut shots so he sees the pattern differently.

Kim Bye · Sep 17, 2013

Straight pool is a game of odds, so even if you can shoot straight as a ruler, getting out of position will screw you in the end.
Sure, the top guys can make difficult shots most of the time, but no ALL of the time.
The only way to consistently get high runs is playing connect the dots as much as possible.

duckie · Sep 17, 2013

I don't think in terms of patterns, but of problems on the table or better put by Babe Cranfield, managing the rack.

Seeing a problem on the table, say a cluster of balls on the rail, and seeing the best way to take care of them, or choosing a little "tougher" shot because I can use the cb to nudge another ball into say being a break ball.

The overall goal is to get to a break ball setup, how you get there really doesn't matter.

macneilb · Sep 17, 2013

sjm said:
Good topic. First of all, let's note that Thorsten and John Schmidt are good pattern players, though perhaps just a bit less technically perfect than some of the living old timers like Ray Martin, Allen Hopkins, Jimmy Rempe, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Dan DiLiberto, Dallas West, Lou Butera, Bobby Hunter, Eddie Kelly and Dan Barouty.

Efren, Dechaine, and also Johnny Archer, all of whom are capable of very long runs, are certainly less skilled pattern players than John and Thorsten, and this is where I think there is some truth in your observations that "patterns may be overrated." In fact, back in the golden days of straight pool, the legendary Luther Lassiter was the only true example of a player who could run balls forever despite not being one of the best few pattern players. Of course, some feel Lassiter was the straightest shooter of all time.

One difference between today and yesteryear is that slower cloth and lower quality balls made it much harder back in the day to open the balls up on a break-shot, and the break shot had to be hit a bit harder. That's why good pattern play was so critical, because break shots could be missed when hit very hard, and back in the day, there were far more missed break shots. Hence, getting very close to the break ball was crucial.

Simonis 860 and Centennial and Aramith balls make it much easier to open the clusters today in 14.1, even when the break shot is attempted from several feet away from the object ball. As ideal position is not as important on the break shot today, the patterns don't have to be quite as good as back in the day.

To sum, good pattern play is important, but less critical than in days gone by. That is why it is so often true today that "straight shooting" can be a sufficient substitute for optimal table management.

I agree with everything you're saying, save for one thing...the pockets on those old tables that they played on were relative buckets compared to what they play on today (diamonds, gold crowns, etc). The pockets that Mosconi made his 500+ ball run were nearly 5". So while the balls break out of clusters easier due to the fast cloth, imo players of today need to be even more accurate with their break shots, no matter what distance they choose to do it from.

The other reason I believe the majority players of today, even the elite players, don't feel the need to get as close to their work is because most players of today grow up on 9 ball or rotation games, where getting really close to a ball isn't paramount, just leaving the correct angle to get on the next ball more than anything. Older players who grew up on straight pool probably came up placing more emphasis on getting close, hence why older players tend to play the game differently. Just my .02

sjm · Sep 17, 2013

macneilb said:
I....I believe the majority players of today, even the elite players, don't feel the need to get as close to their work is because most players of today grow up on 9 ball or rotation games, where getting really close to a ball isn't paramount, just leaving the correct angle to get on the next ball more than anything. Older players who grew up on straight pool probably came up placing more emphasis on getting close, hence why older players tend to play the game differently. Just my .02

This is an excellent point. I agree 100%. Because of their rotational pool backgrounds, this generation of players has learned to run the balls with emphasis on getting the angles right more than getting close to their work. This enables them to manage almost any end pattern in 14.1, even if it might mean they shoot the break shot from just a bit further away.

I learned something form your post!

DTL · Sep 17, 2013

................................

3andstop · Sep 17, 2013

Most often spoken by the old school players. These guys today have such accuracy and fire power that they play correctly for what they have in their tool box.

Mikey Town · Sep 17, 2013

IMO... A players ball pocketing ability will, in part, dictate that players patterns.

If a shot that you or I would consider difficult looks like a hangar to Dechaine, Archer or Efren, then they would be less likely to try to get "perfect" on the ball because they are just going to make it anyway.

Good pattern play is very important because it helps keep you out of difficult situations. However, do to our varying skill levels, we all have a different definition of "difficult."

measureman · Sep 17, 2013

The classic old timers were straight pool players first.
Today we have straight pool players that are 9 ball players first.
This is why we don't see the type of pattern play today as in the past.
Also because being a 9 ball player first they have no fear of getting out of line because coming with the tough shot is what they are used to. The old timers when confronted with a very tough shot would have played safe.
And I've seen most of the old timers going back to the early 60's.

elvicash · Sep 17, 2013

duckie said:
I don't think in terms of patterns, but of problems on the table or better put by Babe Cranfield, managing the rack.

Seeing a problem on the table, say a cluster of balls on the rail, and seeing the best way to take care of them, or choosing a little "tougher" shot because I can use the cb to nudge another ball into say being a break ball.

The overall goal is to get to a break ball setup, how you get there really doesn't matter.

I play like you and have for a long time trying to fix problems and mostly just shooting and have to say I disagree, You will get what you get out of an instance so you are correct BUT the more often you pick the easiest way the more often you will actually get to the break, bad patterns will bring patterns as soon as you can say Willie Mosconi (purveyor of many great patterns).

So sure if you get out you get out, but if you want to get out alot find the better patterns. I am trying this and am finding bigger numbers.

Mikey Town said:
IMO... A players ball pocketing ability will, in part, dictate that players patterns.

If a shot that you or I would consider difficult looks like a hangar to Dechaine, Archer or Efren, then they would be less likely to try to get "perfect" on the ball because they are just going to make it anyway.

Good pattern play is very important because it helps keep you out of difficult situations. However, do to our varying skill levels, we all have a different definition of "difficult."

True but great players find the simplest solutuons that look easy to everyone watching, That guy can't play he never shoots anything I cant make so he obviously cannot play.

alstl · Sep 17, 2013

I wouldn't say patterns are overrated. I would say there is frequently disagreement as to what the correct pattern is.

I posted a run once on here and a couple people chimed in that I didn't clear off balls uptable early enough and shouldn't have used a key ball near the rail uptable on the same side as the break ball.

In this video Mosconi leaves a ball uptable until near the end in both racks and uses a key ball in the second rack near the rail on the same side as the break ball. Did Mosconi have bad patterns?

https://vimeo.com/4957545

It is important to have a pattern once the balls are open. There is room for interpretation as to what that pattern should be. The main thing is to have a pattern you can execute to get on the break shot.

macguy · Sep 17, 2013

CreeDo said:
"This guy plays 14.1 all wrong but he just shoots so straight he gets away with it."

I've heard that said about Thorsten Hohmann, John Schmidt, Efren, Mike Dechaine,
probably a half dozen others. The funny thing is, often the guys saying it can actually
play so you can't just write it off.

If these guys play it wrong, who plays it right?
Anyone who isn't a senior citizen?

Maybe patterns are overrated. Discuss.

As a guy who could really be a pain in the ass when I was a kid around top players, here is what Joe Balsis told me. Now he was a great player but not necessarily one of the best of all time but I respected his opinion. We were sitting watching a match at the US open and I asked him about patterns. I had noticed he would get a break shot and whack it like he was breaking a 9 ball rack many times. His attitude was, every ball is worth 1 point and you can take them off in any number of ways and it is fine.

Once the balls are open you look for the problems, and get a general idea how you will be running the rack. It doesn't have to go perfectly as long as you don't get yourself in trouble. It is bad to play position on a ball where if you don't get perfect you are dead. Straight pool contrary to what many like to think, is very forgiving as long as you don't do really stupid things. Are there patterns, maybe to a degree but more the game is based on theory of how to stay out of trouble. The first sign someone doesn't know what they are doing is if as they begin getting to the end of a rack they have balls scattered around the table often on rails and are having to travel to far to get off the last few balls. It is best to clear the table in sections. Regardless you can shoot off the balls anyway you like.

It is not unusual to see a player maybe shoot several balls in the same pocket just drawing back for no other reason then it is convenient as he clears off an area. Straight pool has to be one of the easiest game to criticize a players play because they do something differently. Like Balsis said, the balls are all worth only 1 point it doesn't really matter how you get them off.

I remember seeing Crane yell at Miz after losing a match because he said Miz played the game wrong. Crane had played a good safe sending the cueball up table and Miz took a shot and ran out instead of playing safe back. Crane was furious and stomped out of the room. Later I saw him downstairs in the hotel restaurant replaying the shot with salt and pepper shakers as I guess it was his wife had to sit there and listen to it.

measureman · Sep 17, 2013

macguy said:
As a guy who could really be a pain in the ass when I was a kid around top players, here is what Joe Balsis told me. Now he was a great player but not necessarily one of the best of all time but I respected his opinion. We were sitting watching a match at the US open and I asked him about patterns. I had noticed he would get a break shot and whack it like he was breaking a 9 ball rack many times. His attitude was, every ball is worth 1 point and you can take them off in any number of ways and it is fine.

Once the balls are open you look for the problems, and get a general idea how you will be running the rack. It doesn't have to go perfectly as long as you don't get yourself in trouble. It is bad to play position on a ball where if you don't get perfect you are dead. Straight pool contrary to what many like to think, is very forgiving as long as you don't do really stupid things. Are there patterns, maybe to a degree but more the game is based on theory of how to stay out of trouble. The first sign someone doesn't know what they are doing is if as they begin getting to the end of a rack they have balls scattered around the table often on rails and are having to travel to far to get off the last few balls. It is best to clear the table in sections. Regardless you can shoot off the balls anyway you like.

It is not unusual to see a player maybe shoot several balls in the same pocket just drawing back for no other reason then it is convenient as he clears off an area. Straight pool has to be one of the easiest game to criticize a players play because they do something differently. Like Balsis said, the balls are all worth only 1 point it doesn't really matter how you get them off.

I remember seeing Crane yell at Miz after losing a match because he said Miz played the game wrong. Crane had played a good safe sending the cueball up table and Miz took a shot and ran out instead of playing safe back. Crane was furious and stomped out of the room. Later I saw him downstairs in the hotel restaurant replaying the shot with salt and pepper shakers as I guess it was his wife had to sit there and listen to it.

Well said. Good advice.
There are several ways to play a rack usually. As long as you can get position on the break ball fairly easy it's a good pattern you played.

RunoutJJ · Sep 17, 2013

I will say this... When Daz first started playing 14:1 he was just potting balls that he could with no really pattern play. Although... After watching Darren's record breaking 200 ball run at the World's tourney I did noticed that his pattern play was that of a straight pool player and not a player just potting whatever he could. Was thoroughly impressed to say the least....

JoeyA · Sep 17, 2013

No one is right all of the time.

CreeDo said:
"This guy plays 14.1 all wrong but he just shoots so straight he gets away with it."

I've heard that said about Thorsten Hohmann, John Schmidt, Efren, Mike Dechaine,
probably a half dozen others. The funny thing is, often the guys saying it can actually
play so you can't just write it off.

If these guys play it wrong, who plays it right?
Anyone who isn't a senior citizen?

Maybe patterns are overrated. Discuss.

Perhaps it is a bit of an ego trip for the commentator since the commentator thinks that the player has made incorrect choices according to their way of thinking.

On the other hand the commentator is paying a nice compliment referencing the straight shooting of the player.

The same thing happens in one pocket commentary. It is a personal perspective by the commentator and depending upon their style of play, may or may not vary from one commentator to the next.

I've seen great commentators make statements about a particular shot that a shooter is getting ready to shoot, saying that the player is shooting the wrong shot even if he makes it.

Sometimes the commentators are correct and sometimes it is just their personal perspective which can be totally wrong because each player has different strengths and they must play to those strengths, the score, and the situation at hand in that moment of the match. Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each player is critical in doing commentary. Even knowing those things, we sometimes say things that aren't 100% correct. Sometimes, those type of comments can be just poor exclamations about the talent of the player.

JoeyA

Mikey Town · Sep 17, 2013

elvicash said:
True but great players find the simplest solutuons that look easy to everyone watching, That guy can't play he never shoots anything I cant make so he obviously cannot play.

You will never see a 100+ ball run made up of all easy shots. You might not see the cue ball fly around the table, like you do in 9-10 ball, but difficult shots need to be made.

While great pattern play can make up for weaknesses in shot making ability, it also works the other way around. The top shot makers of the game won't always play perfect patterns because they just don't have to. Also, their skill level is so far advanced that they may feel comfortable with different things than others are.

The "correct" pattern can be different, depending on the level of the player executing it.

In every single straight pool tournament, you will hear this about the guy who wins.

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