Manalo sold out ???

RickBrazil · Jul 9, 2006

Its 4:48 am, Sunday, just before the sun is about to shine in Greensboro, N.C. ;and after watching the IPT, I will declare that Manalo has made more money loosing those matches and probaly received more promisses, then anybody else in the history of pool up to date...

Honestly, correct-me if i am wrong, (One picture is worth a MILLION words) I just cant see the reason that Manalo missed such shots, and @ the same time comparing Reyes Mistakes; There is no way, Were they drugged or something; it just make me wonder, I mean C'mon; U R A POOL player, watch it more then once if necessary and then come ague w/ me...

I guess I should just say I'm sorry for my frustration, but then again I wouldn't, Cuz I never had no favorites, like all kind of foruns going on lately; to start with : -I don't admire then, I envy then... It's different; anyway, its late, I got to get some sleep, lets open some discussion about this; lets see were we can get !!!

tedkaufman · Jul 9, 2006

RickBrazil said:
Its 4:48 am, Sunday, just before the sun is about to shine in Greensboro, N.C. ;and after watching the IPT, I will declare that Manalo has made more money loosing those matches and probaly received more promisses, then anybody else in the history of pool up to date...

Honestly, correct-me if i am wrong, (One picture is worth a MILLION words) I just cant see the reason that Manalo missed such shots, and @ the same time comparing Reyes Mistakes; There is no way, Were they drugged or something; it just make me wonder, I mean C'mon; U R A POOL player, watch it more then once if necessary and then come ague w/ me...

I guess I should just say I'm sorry for my frustration, but then again I wouldn't, Cuz I never had no favorites, like all kind of foruns going on lately; to start with : -I don't admire then, I envy then... It's different; anyway, its late, I got to get some sleep, lets open some discussion about this; lets see were we can get !!!

Good thinking, Rick. I'm sure there were billionaires lined up everywhere prepared to give Manalo far more than the $200,000 he could have won in the IPT. We all know how much money is thrown at the top pool players, so I'm sure you were right.

Do you think Reyes failed to get the message, though? Or maybe you think Sigel dumped in the finals to take some of that secret society of billionaire money? That's probably it, huh?

jjinfla · Jul 9, 2006

Are you insinuating that Manalo, Bustamante and Reyes would conspire to make the most money out of the IPT? That if given a choice Reyes would be the one to play Mikey? And it was a three way split?

C,mon, I am ashamed at you that anyone in the pool fraternity would even think such a thing could happen. Especially coming from the Philipines where the average yearly salary is $800.

LOL

Jake

bandido · Jul 9, 2006

No, not Marlon. I was witness to when he was offered some cash in a non-bearing (for Marlon) match during the WPC Cardiff Round-robin stages by the guy who'd make it if he beat Marlon in their match. Marlon declined and spanked him to get a perfect 7-0 record in the round-robin stages.

bud green · Jul 9, 2006

Phillipinos sure seem to get accused of "cutting-it-up" a lot. I have to believe most of the stories about the Pinoy pro's are either exaggerated or false.

Not too many guys wanted to enter the Hard Times ring game in Sacramento recently, though. "$600 to play against Orcullo and 3 or 4 other Philipinos? No thanks." A lot of the lack of interest was because Orcullo is almost unbeatable lately but still, its almost assumed that the other players will team up against non-phillipinos.

Efren, Jose, Bustamente, Manalo, Lining,etc... are all great players, and I'm sure no dummies about gambling, but I just don't get the sense that they're always looking to pull "moves", split everything up (unless they're travelling together, maybe), or really that willing to dump once they've reached the level they're at now.

Bad rap or am I just being naive?

Nostroke · Jul 9, 2006

bandido said:
No, not Marlon. I was witness to when he was offered some cash in a non-bearing (for Marlon) match during the WPC Cardiff Round-robin stages by the guy who'd make it if he beat Marlon in their match. Marlon declined and spanked him to get a perfect 7-0 record in the round-robin stages.

And i was there when Efren refused very nearly the same offer.

jimmyg · Jul 9, 2006

RickBrazil said:
Its 4:48 am, Sunday, just before the sun is about to shine in Greensboro, N.C. ;and after watching the IPT, I will declare that Manalo has made more money loosing those matches and probaly received more promisses, then anybody else in the history of pool up to date...

Honestly, correct-me if i am wrong, (One picture is worth a MILLION words) I just cant see the reason that Manalo missed such shots, and @ the same time comparing Reyes Mistakes; There is no way, Were they drugged or something; it just make me wonder, I mean C'mon; U R A POOL player, watch it more then once if necessary and then come ague w/ me...

I guess I should just say I'm sorry for my frustration, but then again I wouldn't, Cuz I never had no favorites, like all kind of foruns going on lately; to start with : -I don't admire then, I envy then... It's different; anyway, its late, I got to get some sleep, lets open some discussion about this; lets see were we can get !!!

Rick, Don't know why anyone is entirely dismissing the possibility. Didn't KT himself state that the IPT tour would be a combination of reality tv, poker, and professional wrestling? Why then would staged matches, created controversy (male vs female) and scripted rivalries be off limits?

And if it were part of the overall plan, just like the wrestlers, the players simply go along with the script. It's certainly possible. I just hope that aside from bringing more money into the great sport of pool, it doesn't become the joke that wrestling is.

wayne · Jul 9, 2006

bud green said:
Phillipinos sure seem to get accused of "cutting-it-up" a lot. I have to believe most of the stories about the Pinoy pro's are either exaggerated or false.

Not too many guys wanted to enter the Hard Times ring game in Sacramento recently, though. "$600 to play against Orcullo and 3 or 4 other Philipinos? No thanks." A lot of the lack of interest was because Orcullo is almost unbeatable lately but still, its almost assumed that the other players will team up against non-phillipinos.

Efren, Jose, Bustamente, Manalo, Lining,etc... are all great players, and I'm sure no dummies about gambling, but I just don't get the sense that they're always looking to pull "moves", split everything up (unless they're travelling together, maybe), or really that willing to dump once they've reached the level they're at now.

Bad rap or am I just being naive?

At Derby City if I remember correctly Efren was playing Luat in the final four. If Efren wins he is in line for a very big bonus for winning the all around. If ever there was a time for Luat to lose this was it. Luat won. If they were really into dumping that would have been the perfect scenario. Seeing that I am a doubtful about any of the dump stories.

Wayne

justabrake · Jul 9, 2006

jimmyg said:
Rick, Don't know why anyone is entirely dismissing the possibility. Didn't KT himself state that the IPT tour would be a combination of reality tv, poker, and professional wrestling? Why then would staged matches, created controversy (male vs female) and scripted rivalries be off limits?

And if it were part of the overall plan, just like the wrestlers, the players simply go along with the script. It's certainly possible. I just hope that aside from bringing more money into the great sport of pool, it doesn't become the joke that wrestling is.

I said it in another post here at AZ that the IPT is a joke and is exactly like wrestling , it's sooo baaad I can't watch it on TV

it's all scripted and played out like an after noon soap , Can someone here tell me what Allen Hopkins thinks of the IPT ?
Steven

RickBrazil · Jul 9, 2006

jimmyg said:
Rick, Don't know why anyone is entirely dismissing the possibility. Didn't KT himself state that the IPT tour would be a combination of reality tv, poker, and professional wrestling? Why then would staged matches, created controversy (male vs female) and scripted rivalries be off limits?

And if it were part of the overall plan, just like the wrestlers, the players simply go along with the script. It's certainly possible. I just hope that aside from bringing more money into the great sport of pool, it doesn't become the joke that wrestling is.

Thanks Jimmy,

Again it is just frustrating to think like ("Ohhhhhhhhhhh GEZZ, even I could not have missed that shot...") I dont have favorites; like i said before, I admire then, envy, and wish could be up there playing w/such highly skilled killers sharks in that small pool (Society).

Now for Mr.Ted "knows it all" Kaufman, Take a ZANEX !!!, relax...

RickBrazil · Jul 9, 2006

jjinfla said:
Are you insinuating that Manalo, Bustamante and Reyes would conspire to make the most money out of the IPT? That if given a choice Reyes would be the one to play Mikey? And it was a three way split?

C,mon, I am ashamed at you that anyone in the pool fraternity would even think such a thing could happen. Especially coming from the Philipines where the average yearly salary is $800.

JAKE,I perssonally am very hohorable too,I NEVER SPLIT A POT, and I NEVER LIE EITHER, Ok maybe one or two pots; No hold'on , don't think I split over 45 POTS; ok anyway Im sure I havent split over 100 of em; no wait ahhhhh never mind my memory is failing me up, What were we talking abbout anyway ??????????????

unknownpro · Jul 9, 2006

RickBrazil said:
jjinfla said:

Are you insinuating that Manalo, Bustamante and Reyes would conspire to make the most money out of the IPT? That if given a choice Reyes would be the one to play Mikey? And it was a three way split?

C,mon, I am ashamed at you that anyone in the pool fraternity would even think such a thing could happen. Especially coming from the Philipines where the average yearly salary is $800.

JAKE,I perssonally am very hohorable too,I NEVER SPLIT A POT, and I NEVER LIE EITHER, Ok maybe one or two pots; No hold'on , don't think I split over 45 POTS; ok anyway Im sure I havent split over 100 of em; no wait ahhhhh never mind my memory is failing me up, What were we talking abbout anyway ??????????????

Click to expand...

LMAO! Sometimes the savers are so complicated they are hard to figure out. And it's hard to split the checks until they're cashed. I've seen well known players sell their spot in a tournament before it even starts. Heard players on this board telling who they're going to beat and then lose to to maximise their split of the money. Been there, done that. They call it professional cause they get paid to play!

Seems like Mike Sigel had quite a saver before the tour was even announced.

unknownpro

onepocketchump · Jul 9, 2006

justabrake said:
I said it in another post here at AZ that the IPT is a joke and is exactly like wrestling , it's sooo baaad I can't watch it on TV it's all scripted and played out like an after noon soap , Can someone here tell me what Allen Hopkins thinks of the IPT ?
Steven

Sure. Having had a conversation with Allen about the IPT recently, he is all for it. Allen is very pro-IPT.

John

bandido · Jul 9, 2006

jimmyg said:
Rick, Don't know why anyone is entirely dismissing the possibility. Didn't KT himself state that the IPT tour would be a combination of reality tv, poker, and professional wrestling? Why then would staged matches, created controversy (male vs female) and scripted rivalries be off limits?

And if it were part of the overall plan, just like the wrestlers, the players simply go along with the script. It's certainly possible. I just hope that aside from bringing more money into the great sport of pool, it doesn't become the joke that wrestling is.

Possibility. Specially if you start tieing up other factors like the sale of part of IPT to an Asian party, entry fees not adding up to cover prize money, on-line betting stations starting to open lines for IPT matches...
I think that what they're doing is something like horse racing and the main stops are the derbys while the qualifiers are minor races. Full IPT pro status is culled as this are suppose to be the thoroughbreds.

Entry fee earnings nor corporate sponsorship is not going to be the money-makers, on-line betting is. Kevin bankrolls it to get it off the ground, provides live coverage then ties-up with an entity that's situated in a country that's liberal with gambling.

Grilled Cheese · Jul 10, 2006

onepocketchump said:
Sure. Having had a conversation with Allen about the IPT recently, he is all for it. Allen is very pro-IPT.

John

Why do people wonder what IPT Pro's think about the IPT? Doesn't make sense.

Use a little common sense. The 150 IPT Pros (vast majority of whom were picked) will be playing for more money than they ever had a chance to. Just for showing up at the Venetian you get $2,000. That's more than what MOST tournaments pay for 1st place. Heck, the U.S. Open paid how much for 9th place? $3,500. IPT will pay out $30,000 for 7th-18th. From what I understand, after 2006 is over, the top 100 get $100,000!

Given that, I seriously, seriously doubt there will be a single bad-mouther among the IPT Pros or even the qualified players for that matter. Would you PUBLICLY bad mouth a new employer who just hired you for 10x the amount of money you previously could make?

The pool world has been so down and out, with pathetic prize money, lousy tournaments, no sponsorship, ...these pros will not bite the hand that feeds them. They are, and will continue to sing the praise of the IPT - even if it is short-lived.

Heh, there's quite a few older players kicking themselves that they didn't keep up with their game more. The "buzz" tells me that many of these guys are frantically training for the IPT. I'm calling it training because they're taking it more seriously than practicing.

I'm curious to see the game-face on the 200 players at the Venetian in a couple of weeks when I'm there. It should be intense. You've got old-timers who want a piece of the pie for a lifetime of pool. You have the touring pro's who are hungry to make some real money and get better exposure. You've got the lesser-knowns and unproven already on the tour that will be fighting tooth and nail to keep their tour cards...And finally, you've got the qualifiers that will battle hard to gain as many points/dollars as they can to try and secure a place on the tour.

It will be insane. I expect players to get quite emotional. KOTH wasn't the real deal - this IS.

KT said he's commited for all of 2007. Getting a tourcard isn't only the $100,000, it's a ticket to 11 or so tournaments that PAY you to show up...

memikey · Jul 10, 2006

bandido said:
......Entry fee earnings nor corporate sponsorship is not going to be the money-makers, on-line betting is. Kevin bankrolls it to get it off the ground, provides live coverage then ties-up with an entity that's situated in a country that's liberal with gambling.

No existing online gambling firm in any liberal country would need to 'tie-up' with Kevin or pay either him or the IPT one bare cent in order to be able take online bets on IPT events.Their share of the IPT betting turnover and their profitability would be almost entirely dependent on the competitiveness of their IPT odds compared to all other online gambling firms in much the same way as it is in the soccer,nfl,baseball,golf and horse racing markets.The same would apply to any new online gambling firm,even if Kevin owned it.

So unless you're suggesting that Kevin would make money by coming to some arrangement with an online gambling firm or individual to manipulate betting on IPT events that Kevin has the power and the willingness to "fix" I can't think what you're getting at in respect of the money making potential for him in the betting field.

Can you give some further clue?

bandido · Jul 10, 2006

memikey said:
No existing online gambling firm in any liberal country would need to 'tie-up' with Kevin or pay either him or the IPT one bare cent in order to be able take online bets on IPT events.Their share of the IPT betting turnover and their profitability would be almost entirely dependent on the competitiveness of their IPT odds compared to all other online gambling firms in much the same way as it is in the soccer,nfl,baseball,golf and horse racing markets.The same would apply to any new online gambling firm,even if Kevin owned it.

So unless you're suggesting that Kevin would make money by coming to some arrangement with an online gambling firm or individual to manipulate betting on IPT events that Kevin has the power and the willingness to "fix" I can't think what you're getting at in respect of the money making potential for him in the betting field.

Can you give some further clue?

Are you saying that these on-line gaming firms can just make money off of somebody's event without paying a fee?

memikey · Jul 10, 2006

bandido said:
Are you saying that these on-line gaming firms can just make money off of somebody's event without paying a fee?

Yes that's what I'm saying.I can't think of any circumstances where any online sports betting bookmaker would have to pay any fee to IPT for offering odds to the public about runners in IPT events.

Depending upon the country in which they are registered etc there would be the usual company licensing fees and possibly some taxes on their profits to pay to the Govt concerned but absolutely nothing would be paid to IPT.Why should there be,it's got nothing to do with IPT? Online firms run books on such things as there being snowfall on Xmas day or who will win a Presidential election,who do you think would get a fee from them for that?

Theoretically IPT might be able to charge some kind of a concession fee to any betting firm who wanted to run an exclusive cash betting booth for the use of spectators at the venue where each IPT tournament was being held,assuming the country concerned's gaming laws allowed such betting,but the fee concerned would be peanuts and even that booth wouldn't take much money in bets if there were a number of online firms offering better odds.

Blue_chalk · Jul 10, 2006

jimmyg said:
Rick, Don't know why anyone is entirely dismissing the possibility. Didn't KT himself state that the IPT tour would be a combination of reality tv, poker, and professional wrestling? Why then would staged matches, created controversy (male vs female) and scripted rivalries be off limits?

And if it were part of the overall plan, just like the wrestlers, the players simply go along with the script. It's certainly possible. I just hope that aside from bringing more money into the great sport of pool, it doesn't become the joke that wrestling is.

I don't think anyone felt they needed a saver in the KOH. Lots of money to go around AND any one of them would have beat Siegel. Bustamante got $70,000 and Manalo got $60,000! Why would you need a saver? Archer got $50,000 for 5th place! The last place person only got $30,000, hardly worth even playing for.

Come to think about it, you guys might be right? Archer was up two games in his elimination match with Manalo. I'm sure that Archer, knowing he had NO chance to beat Manalo split the pot for that match. This assured him another $5,000. Here's how I can tell: right before shooting the eight ball that would have put him up three games, Archer touched his nose and winked at Manalo. Then while shooting the eight ball made the cueball scratch two rails on purpose! This way Manalo was only down one game then instead of three! Manalo could then come back, beat him and cut up the pot with Efren and Bustamante. BUT at least he (Archer) got another $5,000 out of it. It's GENIOUS!

Bustamente (one of the best breakers in the world) touched his nose, winked at Efren and purposefully blasted the balls wide open (several times) but intentionally didn't pocket any off the break. THIS is how he dumped to Reyes. BRILLIANT!

Get real. Manalo lost because he was playing out of his head and then when it was crunch time...choked. Of course, it's not all your fault that you don't know these things because you never get to see them. All they showed on tv was usually the hill game. (Closed circuit message to the IPT: In order to avoid these kinds of problems, if you are only going to show the deciding game...it might be a good idea to give at least a brief synopsis as to how the match ended up the way it did.)

When the lower class of players come in, could there be dumping, etc? Absolutley. Any thoughts that this is what happened in KOH is just crazy!

bandido · Jul 10, 2006

memikey said:
Yes that's what I'm saying.I can't think of any circumstances where any online sports betting bookmaker would have to pay any fee to IPT for offering odds to the public about runners in IPT events.

Depending upon the country in which they are registered etc there would be the usual company licensing fees and possibly some taxes on their profits to pay to the Govt concerned but absolutely nothing would be paid to IPT.Why should there be,it's got nothing to do with IPT? Online firms run books on such things as there being snowfall on Xmas day or who will win a Presidential election,who do you think would get a fee from them for that?

Theoretically IPT might be able to charge some kind of a concession fee to any betting firm who wanted to run an exclusive cash betting booth for the use of spectators at the venue where each IPT tournament was being held,assuming the country concerned's gaming laws allowed such betting,but the fee concerned would be peanuts and even that booth wouldn't take much money in bets if there were a number of online firms offering better odds.

I guess it's going to be labeled as "sponsorship fee" in the USA as it was when "online gambling in pool" was introduced in the WPC. Remember StanJames.com, BetFair.com, etc. banners or as main sponsors? The problem encountered with that is that the tournament prize money was still low that "dumps" occured which netted some players higher pay-offs than the prize money. I read in a post in one of the forums that one player drove around in a Porshe after the tourney.

Snowfall on X'mas day or the Presidential election outcome are just fillers to bring additional income or entice new-comers or to maintain regular customers. IPT events are going to be regular events with plans of live TV coverage. Don't tell me that this doesn't up IPT's bargaining power.

Tell me then how they can maintain the IPT tour, advertisers' fees? KT probably needs the tax break, advertising expense, for his other businesses. But why lose money when you can make some instead?

Manalo sold out ???

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