Posted by the VNEA league coordinator

supergreenman said:

"VNEA rule question: Player breaks makes a ball, he wants to call a ball in the pocket to establish his objects balls and play a safe so he does not have to shoot again, is this legal?
Yes this is a perfectly legal shot, like any safety shot you are giving up the table to your opponent but you will have established your object balls. He does not have to shoot again!"



This was posted on the Leagues facebook page.

I don't agree with this interpretation of the rules, am I wrong?

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Its legal in Napa. Never played vnea so I have no.idea..

lorider said:

Its legal in Napa. Never played vnea so I have no.idea..

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No it is not legal in NAPA nor in any other league.

From the NAPA 8-BALL RULES
9.6
SAFETY SHOT
On any shot after the break, for tactical reasons, a shooter may choose to pocket a "called" object ball into its proper pocket and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring "safety" in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooter intends to play a safety by pocketing a "called" object ball into its proper pocket, then prior to the shot, he must declare a "safety", verbally, to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter's object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed. Calling a safety on the first shot after the break is legal; however, the table continues to remain open for the incoming shooter.

BCA pool league rules say no as well:

1. Groups are established when the first object ball is legally pocketed on a shot after the break. The player legally pocketing the first ball is assigned that group, and the opponent is assigned the other group. You cannot establish a group on a safety. (AR p. 102)

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I got this off the VNEA website.

C. OPEN TABLE

The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. On an open table, all pocketed balls remain pocketed. The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups. THE TABLE IS ALWAYS OPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BREAK SHOT. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

The key in the above statement is in that the choice of group is determined when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot. Later on when they address legal shots the say the following about safeties.

“SAFETY” SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a “safety” to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

So, it looks like in VNEA you can legally pocket a ball on an open table and call safe.

VNEA has a few rules that are different than BCA and some of the other leagues. For instance, in VNEA on an open table the 8ball is neutral and you can hit it first in a combination shot or carom to legally pocket a ball. Racking templates such as a magic rack are not allowed for use in Nationals. A bridge or other device cannot be used to perform a jump shot.

You cannot call a ball and a safety at the same time. Whichever you call last overrides and is the call.

Therefore, in the scenario described, after the safety, the table is open and the incoming player can shoot at either group of balls.

BillYards said:

You cannot call a ball and a safety at the same time. Whichever you call last overrides and is the call.

Therefore, in the scenario described, after the safety, the table is open and the incoming player can shoot at either group of balls.

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While I agree with what you are saying, the vnea refs have been instructed that it is
legal to designate your group, and call a safe on the same shot.

mrshifty said:

While I agree with what you are saying, the vnea refs have been instructed that it is
legal to designate your group, and call a safe on the same shot.

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That is open to too much abuse, odd thing to change from the normal rules. While it's a "legal" shot, you are not calling a pocket. If you call a "safe" you are not calling a pocket, you just happened to make a ball. Can you call two balls just in case the other goes in? Or call one ball in two pockets? If not, how can you call one ball but two shots for it? Someone there failed logic.

I thought only the APA had the right to change rules for the worse. I actually would prefer the rule the APA has where you can't call safe and pocket a ball to being able to both call a ball and call a safe on the same shot.

This is the kind of crap that happens when people who don't know what they are doing are in charge of something.
There is no way under the rules of VNEA or BCA (and obviously under APA as well, as stated) that this can be interpreted so. it's either a safety or a called ball - can't be both.

I played in a VNEA 9-ball league with a push-out rule that you can't touch an object ball with the cue ball on your push.

IbeAnEngineer said:

I got this off the VNEA website.

C. OPEN TABLE

The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. On an open table, all pocketed balls remain pocketed. The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups. THE TABLE IS ALWAYS OPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BREAK SHOT. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

The key in the above statement is in that the choice of group is determined when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot. Later on when they address legal shots the say the following about safeties.

“SAFETY” SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a “safety” to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

So, it looks like in VNEA you can legally pocket a ball on an open table and call safe.

VNEA has a few rules that are different than BCA and some of the other leagues. For instance, in VNEA on an open table the 8ball is neutral and you can hit it first in a combination shot or carom to legally pocket a ball. Racking templates such as a magic rack are not allowed for use in Nationals. A bridge or other device cannot be used to perform a jump shot.

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The rules in bold rule out calling a safe and establishing a group. They say you need to legally pocket a "called object ball", you are not calling an object ball, you are calling a safety and pocketing a ball, that is not the same thing. It is the same thing as making a ball into an uncalled pocket, which is why you can call a safe and give up the turn while making a ball. You did not "call a pocket" on the shot, therefore when you call a safe and make the ball, the ball went into an uncalled pocket, thus you give up your turn. If you are "calling the ball" to establish the group, you can't then also call a safe because one of those negates the other.

This is probably why the APA rules do not allow calling a safe and pocketing a ball, because they play slop 8 ball, so any ball going in, is a good shot for you and you keep shooting. No need to call a pocket, no need to call a safe, ball goes in, you made the shot. If you are playing called shot, you can't both call a safe and a shot because soon as you call the pocket, you made your object ball and keep shooting. Calling a safe you are NOT calling a pocket thus the ball going in is not a legally pocketed ball, and you give up your turn. A rule that would allow both just hurts my head in thinking about it, like trying to imagine infinity.

This rule is like saying "it's legal to drive over the speed limit now, but you will still get a ticket if caught".

sbpoolleague said:

No it is not legal in NAPA nor in any other league.

From the NAPA 8-BALL RULES
9.6
SAFETY SHOT
On any shot after the break, for tactical reasons, a shooter may choose to pocket a "called" object ball into its proper pocket and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring "safety" in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooter intends to play a safety by pocketing a "called" object ball into its proper pocket, then prior to the shot, he must declare a "safety", verbally, to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter's object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed. Calling a safety on the first shot after the break is legal; however, the table continues to remain open for the incoming shooter.

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^^^^^^^^^^That pretty much covers it^^^^^^^^^^^
A safety on an open table means the table will still be open.
Incoming player can shoot stripes or solids, gets his pick.

supergreenman said:

That's for NAPA not VNEA. After looking at the rules for VNEA I have to conclude that a called shot/safety on an open table is allowed.

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Read this part as quoted earlier by someone from their rules

"I got this off the VNEA website.

C. OPEN TABLE

The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. On an open table, all pocketed balls remain pocketed. The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups. THE TABLE IS ALWAYS OPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BREAK SHOT. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot."

The group selection is made after a "called" shot. You cannot call a shot and a safe at the same time, if you are calling a shot you made it and continue shooting. If you are calling a "safe" you are not calling a shot and when the ball falls, it's treated just like you made the ball in another pocket. A ball can't do two things, you can't call this pocket and then call another pocket and have both be a legal called shot if you make it in either one. There is a big difference between a "Legal shot" meaning one you did not foul on, and a "Legal Called shot" meaning you pocketed a ball you called and did not foul.

While some of the other rules are different from normal rules like being able to hit the 8 ball first on an open table, the rule that allows an object ball to behave in two different ways at once just does not make scene and is contradictory to the rules they set up in the first place. The rule that states how you pick your group is no different than any other rule in a called shot 8 ball game that uses world rules, I don't see where they state you can call a shot and play safe at the same time. Just pocketing a ball is not "calling the shot", it's the same thing as a ball going into an uncalled pocket, you give up your turn, but you did not make a called ball.

mrshifty said:

While I agree with what you are saying, the vnea refs have been instructed that it is
legal to designate your group, and call a safe on the same shot.

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The whoever is instructing the VNEA refs is a total idiot

VNEA

C. OPEN TABLE

The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. On an open table, all pocketed balls remain pocketed. The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups. THE TABLE IS ALWAYS OPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BREAK SHOT. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.



“SAFETY” For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a “safety” to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

thehoneybadger said:

VNEA

C. OPEN TABLE

The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open it is legal to hit any solid or stripe or the 8-ball first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. On an open table, all pocketed balls remain pocketed. The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups. THE TABLE IS ALWAYS OPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BREAK SHOT. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.



“SAFETY” SHOT: For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a “safety” to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

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Are you implying that the highlighted lines contradict each other? There is a difference between "legally pocketing a ball" and a "legal shot".

easy-e said:

Are you implying that the highlighted lines contradict each other? There is a difference between "legally pocketing a ball" and a "legal shot".

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No I play VNEA and between those statements there is a lot of confusion in the league and tourneys we play no one seems to have a clear answer. It seems everyone is just making their best guess

thehoneybadger said:

No I play VNEA and between those statements there is a lot of confusion in the league and tourneys we play no one seems to have a clear answer. It seems everyone is just making their best guess

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I don't think there is much confusion, unless someone does not really understand how a safety shot in 8 ball works and just tries to interpret the rules on their own without any prior knowledge. Even then, the rule is pretty clear, you need to make a called shot after the break to establish your suit. A safe is not a "called shot", you are just pocketing a ball while giving up your turn precisely because it was NOT a called shot.

Balls pocketed on a safety are illegally pocketed balls.

Always have been. Always will be.

It annoys me that most rule books don't explicitly say this. Would really clear up the confusion.