Help me run this rack

looks like playing the 13 off the hop may straighten out the 7 too much and I'd like to get the 3 off using the 7.

My first thought was this ...

7 3 11 15 2 bottom left pocket, 8 top side opening slightly 1 12 14 with the shot, considering 10 and 9 as break key or what happens to 12 after the 8. Tough to go on from there for me without seeing how they would lie.

Id shoot the 7 first and go into the 12,1 hopefully spreading the 8 and 2 out some as well. Leaving the three for the next shot. from there Id work my way back to the 13 leaving the 9, 11 and 10 for the last three shots, Id use the 10 for the break ball. Id shoot the 9, followed by the 11 to set up the shot on the 10.

but thats me, Im sure there are proboly better ways but I like the 10 for a break ball in this perticular rack. The one could also be used but it would be difficult to control the speed off the rail with the cue ball with just enough speed off the 7 to nudge the one into a prestine break location If I did then thats the ball id use.

SPINDOKTOR

The first thing I notice is that you have a free shot at making the 8 an ideal break ball (for me being a lefty). Come off the 7 and go into the 8. If you miss, you might hit the 12 and bump the 1 out instead (although the 1 would be a little too high maybe). Or, you might miss the 8 and hit the 2, possibly making it a break ball. In either case, you will still have the 3 for your safety ball. You might create an ideal break ball, and even if you don't you've just moved the cluster around a little, which would probably also be good. I'd go from there if I was successful on the 8.

I don't care for shooting the 13 as it looks more like a 9 ball shot (too long). Also if you shoot it, you'll have another long shot coming back for the 7, unless you really pop the 13 and draw back. But then this will make the 13 missable. It just looks like there are bigger fish to fry, and you will be able to maneuver up there closer later on. If the 8 moved out well, I'd make the 13 part of the end sequence along with the 4 and 5.

So that's my first thought. I'm sure the big ball runners will have more interesting things to say.

dwhite

I don't like going into this cluster from the bottom-left direction, because hitting the 8 softly enough to develop it as a break ball carries a big risk of leaving you stuck to one of those balls. I like hitting the 5 with draw for a first shot, bring the CB back to center-table. Then sinking the 14 and gently going into the 1 ball full will carom the 8 off the 2 into break ball position, and you've got almost every ball on the table available for your next shot. If you don't draw far enough off the 5, you've got the balls near the top left corner to shoot and reset yourself for another try, and if you draw too far, you've got the 13 to use to reset for another try. That's definitely what my plan of attack would be. Then once I developed the 8 into a break shot, I'd probably miss an easy shot in the "easy" middle part of the rack, where all the balls are open, and then my opponent would use my perfectly opened rack to start a run of at least 30 or 40 while I kick myself.

-Andrew

So where are the opinions from our acknowledged authorities, Steve Lipsky, sjm, Blackjack, etc.? I'm curious to know how some real 14.1 heavyweights would do this.

-Andrew

I'm no "acknowledged authority", but I'll give my 2 cents as well.

The 7 and 14 looks like good balls to break up the middle cluster. But I wouldn't go into the cluster immediately, considering the congestion in the top-left corner.

I would pot the 5 first, then 15, 9 (top-right corner), and 4 (side). After potting the 4, I'd want to be sure I follow down a bit to get proper angle on the 14 for the break out shot. I would hit the break out shot fairly softly such that the 1 or 8 can come out as a break ball.

If I get the wrong angle on the 14, then I'd play the 11 for my break out shot. If I get too much angle on the 14, then I'd use the 7 as my break out shot. The 13 would be left as an insurance ball.

CUE TABLE LINK

Ok, I planned all the way up to the 9 ball, how ever, I had to stop there because my next shot would totally depend on how the cluster got broken up 3 shots before hand using the 2. The 10 was my ball to either get on the 14 for the break, or get on one of the 3 remaining balls from the cluster.

The 7-3-11-8 looks to be the way I'd attack this.

If I have to, I can use the 9 to stop my cueball after shooting the 11. (If the 9 passes the 15, I'd try to leave it alone.) After the 11, I want to shoot the 8 next, which opens the rack. From there, it will all depend on exactly where you get on the 8. But I know I can play these 4 balls correctly about 100% of the time, and it opens everything, so that's my starting pattern.

Btw, I would probably not begin with the 13 ball here. It's missable, and even if you don't miss it, as someone else mentioned you can get too straight on the 7 next. There is no way I'm going to risk ending my run with a table as open as this. The 13's not a great ball to leave up, but it's also not terrible. I wouldn't bother with it yet.

- Steve

This rack has one big problem ball, and it's the 3. The 3 has to be removed quickly - it will start to handcuff you if you don't.

Since there's a way to take it off comfortably almost immediately, I think you have to.

Just my opinion...

Steve Lipsky said:

This rack has one big problem ball, and it's the 3. The 3 has to be removed quickly - it will start to handcuff you if you don't.

Since there's a way to take it off comfortably almost immediately, I think you have to.

Just my opinion...

Click to expand...

I agree, the 3 is the third ball in the pattern that I came up with.

Steve Lipsky said:

The 7-3-11-8 looks to be the way I'd attack this.

If I have to, I can use the 9 to stop my cueball after shooting the 11. (If the 9 passes the 15, I'd try to leave it alone.) After the 11, I want to shoot the 8 next, which opens the rack. From there, it will all depend on exactly where you get on the 8. But I know I can play these 4 balls correctly about 100% of the time, and it opens everything, so that's my starting pattern.

Btw, I would probably not begin with the 13 ball here. It's missable, and even if you don't miss it, as someone else mentioned you can get too straight on the 7 next. There is no way I'm going to risk ending my run with a table as open as this. The 13's not a great ball to leave up, but it's also not terrible. I wouldn't bother with it yet.

- Steve

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After reading your two posts, I very much agree with everything you said. I also realize that my initial post is absolute garbage.

Thanks for the lesson.

I would also start with the 7 ball, trying to come off the rail and gently tap the 12, which sets up the 1 for a break ball. I hate the position of that 14 for 3 reasons:
1) its a bit high
2) there is no easy key ball
3) that 1 ball is screaming and begging to be tapped out of there.

Before someone points this out - I KNOW that the one will probably be just as high as the 14 - however I have two workable key balls once the one is tapped out of there, the 4 and the 5 balls. The 14 can also serve as a key ball for the 1. Even if I knock the 1 ball too far, I still have the 14 - plus a shot on the 3 ball.

After accomplishing that, I am then going for the 3 ball right away. After I I contact the 12, the 3 is my insurance ball. The rest of the rack plays pretty simple with the exception of the 8 and the 2. That forces me to clear out that top corner pocket - going 3 - 11 - 10 - 15. This opens that pocket up for the 9, which will set me up for the 8 and the 2. The others are pretty much set. The 4 is probably my key ball in this rack - it depends if I need to eliminate the 5 or 14 at some point, I have 3 key balls to spare - and 2 workable break balls. Having more than one option is extremely important and I always look for ways to tilt the odds in my favor, not in the favor of the table or the layout of the balls.

Blackjack said:

I would also start with the 7 ball, trying to come off the rail and gently tap the 12, which sets ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

.

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i like bumping into the cluster also. normally, i like high breakshots, but the 14 is a little too high.
the table is laid out pretty simply with the exception of a few nuisances. the 3,11, and that funny cluster,,,,,which is why i prefer taking the opportunity to open that up JUST A BIT and the 7 is a perfect ball to do it with. who knows,,,another breakshot may reveal itself, or maybe an easier way to clear that mess up. BUT IN ANY CASE, if there's nothing there, i can always get back to the 3-11 and continue the sequence.

only this time, there'll be a different dynamic because the cluster will have changed from what it was previous, which i didn't like.

bruin70 said:

i like bumping into the cluster also. normally, i like high breakshots, but the 14 is a little too high.
the table is laid out pretty simply with the exception of a few nuisances. the 3,11, and that funny cluster,,,,,which is why i prefer taking the opportunity to open that up JUST A BIT and the 7 is a perfect ball to do it with. who knows,,,another breakshot may reveal itself, or maybe an easier way to clear that mess up. BUT IN ANY CASE, if there's nothing there, i can always get back to the 3-11 and continue the sequence.

only this time, there'll be a different dynamic because the cluster will have changed from what it was previous, which i didn't like.

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Like I said, that 1 ball is just SCREAMING to be tapped out of there!!!

Nothing can be lost by trying this because of the position of the 3 which is sitting as an insurance ball. I like going for that now because I might not get another opportunity to get in there - at least not another opprtunity that is set up as sweet as this.

can i see the 5?

5 - get an angle on the 12.
12
11 - dink the cb over near the 3(tapping it would be great)
10 - bump the 2 or 8 for a breakshot.

worse case scenario is i'll always have the 14 as a backup breakshot.

Blackjack said:

I would also start with the 7 ball, trying to come off the rail and gently tap the 12, which sets up the 1 for a break ball. I hate the position of that 14 for 3 reasons:

1) its a bit high
2) there is no easy key ball
3) that 1 ball is screaming and begging to be tapped out of there.

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I had two comments, if you wouldn't mind responding.

(1) You said that the 1 would be just as high as the 14, but you have the 4 and 5 as key balls. Does this mean that you will use the 4 and 5 to make a very shallow break shot on the 1, whereas you couldn't do that as well with the 14? What would it take for you to use the 9 as a key ball to shoot the 1 as a side pocket break?

(2) I noticed both you and Steve passed on the thought of bumping the 8 over into break position. I didn't see any downside to doing this. I don't think you can get snookered at the speed needed to move the 8 over. The position is a little tricky, but it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me, either. What do you think?

Thanks,
Dan White

qstroker said:

I had two comments, if you wouldn't mind responding.

(1) You said that the 1 would be just as high as the 14, but you have the 4 and 5 as key balls. Does this mean that you will use the 4 and 5 to make a very shallow break shot on the 1, whereas you couldn't do that as well with the 14? What would it take for you to use the 9 as a key ball to shoot the 1 as a side pocket break?

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I would never use the 9 to get on the 1 in the side. I don't like having to take a behind the stack or side pocket break shot unless I really have to.

As far as the 4 and 5 giving a "shallow" break shot - remember it all depends upon what ball that you would use to set up for your key ball. If all goes as planned, I would rather use the 4 or 5 as a set up and use the 14 as a key ball. Plan B being using another ball to shoot the 4 or 5 into the side pocket or up table to get a good angle on the 9. In a situation such as this where you have so many possibilities, it really comes down to the player and what he or she is comfortable with. It also comes down to dealing with what happens throughout the run. I believe its important to have more than one option just in case Plan A goes into the crapper. That is why I said that I like to have more than one break ball and more than one key ball - just so I have a backup plan if things go wrong.

qstroker said:

(2) I noticed both you and Steve passed on the thought of bumping the 8 over into break position. I didn't see any downside to doing this. I don't think you can get snookered at the speed needed to move the 8 over. The position is a little tricky, but it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me, either. What do you think?

Click to expand...

When I initially looked at the layout, the 1 & 12 screamed at me. I was not able to hit all of the 8 ball, plus it looked as if the cue ball might contact other balls recklessly - so I passed on it. This goes back to my "neat in - neat out" theory. If I go into the 8 ball, I might also clip the 12, or the 2 - I might even move the 1 also. By directing the cue ball into the 12 ball (on the low side) I know that I will only move the 12 and the 1 ball - merely opening up the balls slightly enough to be able to open them up for a pocket. The 2 and the 8 are free and they don't need to be moved, so why mess with it? Neat in and neat out means that I want the cue ball to contact only one ball and then get free and open for my next shot - in this case hopefully the 3 ball. Going into the 8 is not out of the realm of possibility, I just believe that the percentage shot was splitting the cluster with the 12.

Also - speed is a major factor in both shots. If the 1 ball goes too far over, then it goes on the rail above the 9 ball. That's really not a big problem, you still have the 14 as a break ball, and you haven't traded one cluster for another problem. If you tap the 8 too far over it gets in between the 9 and the 15 - possibly creating a combination for you later on down the line. That's trading the cluster for a combination - something that is never fun to deal with, especially if the balls are not lined up to your liking.

Blackjack said:

When I initially looked at the layout, the 1 & 12 screamed at me. I was not able to hit all of the 8 ball, plus it looked as if the cue ball might contact other balls recklessly - so I passed on it. This goes back to my "neat in - neat out" theory. If I go into the 8 ball, I might also clip the 12, or the 2 - I might even move the 1 also. By directing the cue ball into the 12 ball (on the low side) I know that I will only move the 12 and the 1 ball - merely opening up the balls slightly enough to be able to open them up for a pocket. The 2 and the 8 are free and they don't need to be moved, so why mess with it? Neat in and neat out means that I want the cue ball to contact only one ball and then get free and open for my next shot - in this case hopefully the 3 ball. Going into the 8 is not out of the realm of possibility, I just believe that the percentage shot was splitting the cluster with the 12.

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OK, thanks for the explanation. I guess I was worried that neither the 1 nor the 14 were going to yield much of a spread on the next rack's break shot, so a kind of a free shot on the 8 would be worth it.

dwhite