Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Main Category > Main Forum
Reload this Page With a Low Deflection Shaft, How Much English Do You Use?
Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Rate Thread
With a Low Deflection Shaft, How Much English Do You Use?
Old
  (#1)
Pushout
AzB Silver Member
Pushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond repute
 
Pushout's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 7,692
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Aug 2006
   
With a Low Deflection Shaft, How Much English Do You Use? - 05-13-2007, 12:48 PM

All the talk about after-market, low deflection shafts, got me thinking. One of the things people who use predator shafts claim, is that it's easier to put more english on the cue ball. My question, therefore, is how often do you use a lot of english with a low deflection shaft. I just realized the other day, I stopped using a lot of english, especially for 9 ball, years ago. That may be one of the major reasons I don't take to low deflection shafts.
I'm not trying to restart the debate as to whether after-market shafts are worth the money or not, or that they play better or worse than a custom stock shaft. I'm really curious about the amount of english used, though.


I had a stroke. I had it when I came in, I KNOW I did

"Nothing beats playing pool in your underwear at 2 o'clock in the morning." George Fels 1938-2013

Straight Pool is not a race!

Link to 101 Tips to Improve Your Game by George Fels:http://www.mediafire.com/file/ldhxbl..._Game.pdf/file
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#2)
selftaut
straight pool nut
selftaut has a reputation beyond reputeselftaut has a reputation beyond reputeselftaut has a reputation beyond reputeselftaut has a reputation beyond reputeselftaut has a reputation beyond reputeselftaut has a reputation beyond reputeselftaut has a reputation beyond reputeselftaut has a reputation beyond reputeselftaut has a reputation beyond reputeselftaut has a reputation beyond reputeselftaut has a reputation beyond repute
 
selftaut's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,771
vCash: 700
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bay State
   
05-13-2007, 12:55 PM

I think that how much english used is the preference of the player and really nothing to do with the shaft , the low deflection shaft will in theory help with consistancy and accuracy when using english having less squirt.


http://www.14and1.com America's only nationwide straight pool league!
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#3)
Koopa
Ricky
Koopa has a reputation beyond reputeKoopa has a reputation beyond reputeKoopa has a reputation beyond reputeKoopa has a reputation beyond reputeKoopa has a reputation beyond reputeKoopa has a reputation beyond reputeKoopa has a reputation beyond reputeKoopa has a reputation beyond reputeKoopa has a reputation beyond reputeKoopa has a reputation beyond reputeKoopa has a reputation beyond repute
 
Koopa's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 410
vCash: 600
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Miami, FL
   
05-13-2007, 12:56 PM

It's not easier to put more english on the cue ball. I used a 314 on my Lucasi for about a year and I still use the same amount of english I did with the Predator when I'm using my Zac. No change, just adjustment to the deflection.


Cues: player and J/B both Omens
Hours a week: 30
Age: 23
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#4)
Fatboy
AzB Silver Member
Fatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 15,130
vCash: 2400
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Join Date: Nov 2006
   
05-13-2007, 02:07 PM

english has absolutely nothing to do with the shaft, it has to do with position, you use what you have to to get on the next ball, how much to use depends on your abilitys and the layout of the balls, i dont take some shots on because i dont have the stroke to pull them off-not very many any more and over the years less and less, after a long layoff when I'm out of stroke I'm a whole lot more careful on english and shot selection. There is no way to describe "how much". its like trying to describe what choclate tastes like. Both kinds of shafts will do the job, but your stroke will have more infulence on the CB than any shaft ever will. try and understand the concept, i'm not nit picking you but pool isnt an equipment based game, its about you more than the shaft. Keep playing and you'll see what i'm talking about. good luck


OG member of the Lock Society members or OG-LS;

Just call me Fat-Lock

im getting old and sloppy....

Last edited by Fatboy; 05-13-2007 at 02:10 PM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#5)
3andstop
Focus
3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute
 
3andstop's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 4,119
vCash: 500
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Join Date: Feb 2007
   
05-13-2007, 02:29 PM

I will admit that when it comes to shaft deflection or no shaft deflection I don't have a clue what the hubbub is all about.

I'll admit I'm not the best pool player in the world but you can be pretty sure I'll hit you with a 30 or 40 in any one game to 100 in straight pool and I'll break and get out at least 2 or 3 times in a race to 7, maybe even string the 3 together, so I mean I can play ok, I just haven't given this deflection thing much thought.

When I do think of it, I think ... well if may an analogy with a car, my butt, and a shock absorber, I'd say that if my butt were the cue ball and the shock absorber the cue stick, I'd jump around less with a shock that deflects than I would if someone stuck a solid rod of steel in the shocks place.

But hey, I'm getting old ..LOL.. I don't use any special stick. What I have are a few of the original meuccis. I guess they say those are real whippy, but when I pick up a real stiff cue it feels funny to me.

I think in the end, its what you get used to, and the amount of english you put on the shot depends on where you wanna go with the cue ball.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#6)
Pushout
AzB Silver Member
Pushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond repute
 
Pushout's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 7,692
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Aug 2006
   
05-13-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatboy
Both kinds of shafts will do the job, but your stroke will have more infulence on the CB than any shaft ever will. try and understand the concept, i'm not nit picking you but pool isnt an equipment based game, its about you more than the shaft. Keep playing and you'll see what i'm talking about. good luck
LOL! Yeah, I'll keep playing 40 more years! I know what you're talking about. I want to know what the appeal of after-market shafts is, this is the one predator users talk about the most. I'm opposed to using a lot of english anyway, but more spin, more easily applied, is what I hear about the most, as far as after-market shafts.


I had a stroke. I had it when I came in, I KNOW I did

"Nothing beats playing pool in your underwear at 2 o'clock in the morning." George Fels 1938-2013

Straight Pool is not a race!

Link to 101 Tips to Improve Your Game by George Fels:http://www.mediafire.com/file/ldhxbl..._Game.pdf/file
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#7)
Gregg
AzB Silver Member
Gregg has a reputation beyond reputeGregg has a reputation beyond reputeGregg has a reputation beyond reputeGregg has a reputation beyond reputeGregg has a reputation beyond reputeGregg has a reputation beyond reputeGregg has a reputation beyond reputeGregg has a reputation beyond reputeGregg has a reputation beyond reputeGregg has a reputation beyond reputeGregg has a reputation beyond repute
 
Gregg's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 2,769
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ, USA
   
05-13-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pushout
LOL! Yeah, I'll keep playing 40 more years! I know what you're talking about. I want to know what the appeal of after-market shafts is, this is the one predator users talk about the most. I'm opposed to using a lot of english anyway, but more spin, more easily applied, is what I hear about the most, as far as after-market shafts.
Then you yourself should know the answer already, and I'm sure do. There is no right or wrong. It all comes down to the feel of the cue in your hands and if you like it. People do many different things to achieve the same result. Position is position, and it doesn't matter what you use to get the cue ball there. Some feel that a low deflection shaft wrecks their game; others feel they can't play without one. Only you can decide.


Playing Cue: Samsara w/matched 314 (aka "Predator Cheat Stick") Sniper Tip
Jump/Break Cue: Sledgehammer
Hours of Pool: Whatever is fun for me, about 10
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#8)
JoeW
AzB Silver Member
JoeW has a reputation beyond reputeJoeW has a reputation beyond reputeJoeW has a reputation beyond reputeJoeW has a reputation beyond reputeJoeW has a reputation beyond reputeJoeW has a reputation beyond reputeJoeW has a reputation beyond reputeJoeW has a reputation beyond reputeJoeW has a reputation beyond reputeJoeW has a reputation beyond reputeJoeW has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 2,885
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Nov 2006
   
05-13-2007, 05:13 PM

The short answer, 1/2 tip less.

At 63, I am definitely in the “old” group. When you stop learning you start to die, that is the way I see it. I have played with a Mottey for 14+ years and would not even consider another cue stick unless it were better than the look and feel of my cue stick.

I bought the new Z2 predator shaft a month or so ago and it is a better shaft. At a guess, I would say I play a ½ tip less English and the same for spin (draw and follow). Why? Well I think there are a few things going on. The Z2 I bought is one inch longer than the standard Z2. It has an 11.75 mm tip and it is similar to a snooker cue with its longer taper and shorter ferrule. I played quite a bit of snooker in the 60s and 70s and find that it too is a great game with those little tiny pockets, long green and round pockets.

For those who think that playing is in the person not the equipment try playing pool with a snooker cue. I think you will start cussing the equipment.

I compared the standard Mottey shaft and the Z2 for deflection over 6 feet and the Z2 has less deflection. If you don’t think that cues have more or less deflection place the cue ball on the head spot the one ball centered on the foot rail. Shoot lag speed to hit the one on the number with one tip of English and watch where you hit – or watch where the one ball lands. Shoot the same shot alternating left and right English and shoot on line (not compensating for deflection) at the center of the one ball. I found that when this is done honestly there is as much as ½” deflection on one side of the standard shaft and about ¼” deflection when the shaft is rotated 90 degrees. With the Z2 there was less than an 1/8” deflection on most shots and I was dead on others.

I just ran the test again (to be sure of the Z2 results) and got the same results – dead on or less than 1/8th” deflection. Because the Z2 is a thinner shaft, one tip of English is not as far off center as the standard shaft. My personal results are similar to the results obtained with a swing arm. Based on the mechanical swing arm there can be no other conclusion. With the Z2 there is less cue ball deflection.

However, the Z2 is much more demanding. I use a dime shape on my cue and the spot is substantially smaller. I get the English that I offset the cue and because the hit is so precise I need to move less to the outside to get the same amount of English.

For my money I could care less if it is called a “Z2” “after market” or it is the standard shaft. I want the best tool I can find. I believe their technology is new enough to have a real patent and that is why more cue makers are not making this standard equipment.

I also do not use ivory balls and I prefer an automatic ball return. I use the best color corrected lights available so these “old” eyes can play longer and better. I would play with any cue tip if someone could invent one that played better than the Mori tip I currently use.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#9)
SPINDOKTOR
lool wtf??
SPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,261
vCash: 500
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Join Date: Mar 2007
   
05-13-2007, 05:25 PM

I can tell you why I like my new P2, and yes it is the spin, Im staying closer to the center of the cue ball, yet generating more than enough spin to play position. this has allowed me to stay more focused and consistant, the only other cue I have felt this confortable with is my Ray Schuler, whitch I like the hit and balance better but the pred P2 is an awsome cue, and Im going to continue to use it, I like the look. Simple, stealthy, and deadly. but it takes this kind of technology to even compare to the Schuler, with a Maple shaft, If Schuler would adapt and take advantage of this technology IMHO this would be the absolute best playing cue in the world today. would be for me..


SPINDOKTOR


DEALER FOR: FURY CUES
pm for quotes
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#10)
CreeDo
Fargo Rating 597
CreeDo has a reputation beyond reputeCreeDo has a reputation beyond reputeCreeDo has a reputation beyond reputeCreeDo has a reputation beyond reputeCreeDo has a reputation beyond reputeCreeDo has a reputation beyond reputeCreeDo has a reputation beyond reputeCreeDo has a reputation beyond reputeCreeDo has a reputation beyond reputeCreeDo has a reputation beyond reputeCreeDo has a reputation beyond repute
 
CreeDo's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 8,986
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: New England
  Send a message via AIM to CreeDo  
05-13-2007, 05:28 PM

the way I heard it described best is that some players are speed types and some players are spin types. The more I play, the more I find it's true... good english can often substitute for raw force or vice versa.

I think that regardless of your style or equipment, sidespin should always be done by striking the cueball at the full english position (halfway between center and edge). I don't see the percentage in using a hair of inside or outside, it mostly dies when it hits the rail and often won't accomplish anything you couldn't have done without sidespin. The gains are marginal and you're increasing the chance of missing, and anyway it should help consistency to to always have the same amount of sidespin. Follow and draw are another story, it makes sense to vary the hit with those.

So, when I'm using a nice predator-type shaft, I don't change where I address the cueball, the only thing I might change is my line of aim (since I know it will go straighter).
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#11)
3andstop
Focus
3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute3andstop has a reputation beyond repute
 
3andstop's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 4,119
vCash: 500
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Join Date: Feb 2007
   
05-13-2007, 07:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CreeDo

I think that regardless of your style or equipment, sidespin should always be done by striking the cueball at the full english position (halfway between center and edge). I don't see the percentage in using a hair of inside or outside,
Wow, well that just goes to show you how differently we all think the game through. For me there are as many englishes as there are places on the cueball to hit. Applying it to the ball is kind of second nature and by feel, but I surely don't limit it to halfway between center and edge.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#12)
Pushout
AzB Silver Member
Pushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond repute
 
Pushout's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 7,692
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Aug 2006
   
05-13-2007, 07:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg
Then you yourself should know the answer already, and I'm sure do. There is no right or wrong. It all comes down to the feel of the cue in your hands and if you like it. People do many different things to achieve the same result. Position is position, and it doesn't matter what you use to get the cue ball there. Some feel that a low deflection shaft wrecks their game; others feel they can't play without one. Only you can decide.
I agree about the feel of the cue and if you like it. One of the best players where I played in NY wanted a Schon for years, an older one, and finally acquired one. The next time I went back to NY, he was playing with a Pechauer. When I asked him why, his answer was that there were things he could do with the Pechauer that he could not do with the Schon.


I had a stroke. I had it when I came in, I KNOW I did

"Nothing beats playing pool in your underwear at 2 o'clock in the morning." George Fels 1938-2013

Straight Pool is not a race!

Link to 101 Tips to Improve Your Game by George Fels:http://www.mediafire.com/file/ldhxbl..._Game.pdf/file
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#13)
Pushout
AzB Silver Member
Pushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond repute
 
Pushout's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 7,692
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Aug 2006
   
05-13-2007, 07:17 PM

JoeW, that's about the best explanation I've heard. Thanks.


I had a stroke. I had it when I came in, I KNOW I did

"Nothing beats playing pool in your underwear at 2 o'clock in the morning." George Fels 1938-2013

Straight Pool is not a race!

Link to 101 Tips to Improve Your Game by George Fels:http://www.mediafire.com/file/ldhxbl..._Game.pdf/file
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#14)
Pushout
AzB Silver Member
Pushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond reputePushout has a reputation beyond repute
 
Pushout's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 7,692
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Aug 2006
   
05-13-2007, 07:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CreeDo
the way I heard it described best is that some players are speed types and some players are spin types.
I agree, I guess I'm more of a speed type. I have a friend that I've known for about 20+ Years who spins the cue ball more than anyone I've ever seen. He plays pretty sporty when he's in stroke. Plays with cuetech, but let's not go there


I had a stroke. I had it when I came in, I KNOW I did

"Nothing beats playing pool in your underwear at 2 o'clock in the morning." George Fels 1938-2013

Straight Pool is not a race!

Link to 101 Tips to Improve Your Game by George Fels:http://www.mediafire.com/file/ldhxbl..._Game.pdf/file
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#15)
SPINDOKTOR
lool wtf??
SPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond reputeSPINDOKTOR has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,261
vCash: 500
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Join Date: Mar 2007
   
05-13-2007, 09:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CreeDo
the way I heard it described best is that some players are speed types and some players are spin types. The more I play, the more I find it's true... good english can often substitute for raw force or vice versa.

I think that regardless of your style or equipment, sidespin should always be done by striking the cueball at the full english position (halfway between center and edge). I don't see the percentage in using a hair of inside or outside, it mostly dies when it hits the rail and often won't accomplish anything you couldn't have done without sidespin. The gains are marginal and you're increasing the chance of missing, and anyway it should help consistency to to always have the same amount of sidespin. Follow and draw are another story, it makes sense to vary the hit with those.

So, when I'm using a nice predator-type shaft, I don't change where I address the cueball, the only thing I might change is my line of aim (since I know it will go straighter).




Since I like your avatar, Straight pool players can really take advantage of a pred type shaft, center, center high, and center low with a pred shaft is amazing compared to a standard maple shaft. thats why I like it, not because of the extremities, I can get that with any shaft, it's where your tip is placed the most, the majority of the time on the cue ball that the pred shafts shine, imho..

Ofcourse at times you still need side but I find using a pred shaft I dont need to use as much as often, and I think there is where consistancy comes in. if you use extreme english every shot the pred shaft will shoot straighter but I cant see where it would generate alot more side.


SPINDOKTOR


DEALER FOR: FURY CUES
pm for quotes
  
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.