14.1 League - Make-Up Games - Need Suggestions

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
Hey Guys,

I run a 14.1 League here on Long Island, and the situation is getting worse with Make-Up Games. right now i freeze the handicaps for what they were at the time of the scheduled game, and then adjust there current handicap +/- 5 % based on the result of that weeks match. which is really not fair come the end of the season when players are playing at a different handicap then they should have been especially when their opponents have played all of their games.


I am looking to make changes for next season, considering giving guys 1 week to play the match before their next scheduled match. at that time it would either be turned into a forfeit to the player that cancelled or turning it into a non event (meaning no points awarded for either player) which isnt really fair either way you slice it. i would make exceptions if its health or family emergency related.

Need Some Suggestions on how i can possibly handle this going forward !!

Thanks In Advance !!
-Steve
 

IUTrader

Registered
I play in a league where we play makeups at whatever your current handicap is. For example, I'm playing a guy tomorrow that I was supposed to play 3 months ago (first week of season), and if I played him then, I would have gotten a spot of about 15 balls, going to 150. Now, I have to give him 10, as I've played very well this session. I haven't heard anyone in our league complain about the situation, and it really only seems to be an issue if one leaves a LOT of make up matches til the end of the session, and their handicap can't be adjusted appropriately.
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
I play in a league where we play makeups at whatever your current handicap is. For example, I'm playing a guy tomorrow that I was supposed to play 3 months ago (first week of season), and if I played him then, I would have gotten a spot of about 15 balls, going to 150. Now, I have to give him 10, as I've played very well this session. I haven't heard anyone in our league complain about the situation, and it really only seems to be an issue if one leaves a LOT of make up matches til the end of the session, and their handicap can't be adjusted appropriately.

But doing it that way, players may intentionally wait to play there make-ups so the handicaps are differently.

And on the flip side of that players may intentionally lose a few games to change that game as well.

Thanks for the input !!
Steve
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
...
Need Some Suggestions on how i can possibly handle this going forward !!

Thanks In Advance !!
-Steve
We don't have any scheduled matches. Whoever shows up on Monday nights gets matched up and they play. If you miss too many Mondays, you don't get into the playoffs. Rarely two players will arrange a match at some other time, and that's OK.
 

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
I play in a league where we play makeups at whatever your current handicap is. For example, I'm playing a guy tomorrow that I was supposed to play 3 months ago (first week of season), and if I played him then, I would have gotten a spot of about 15 balls, going to 150. Now, I have to give him 10, as I've played very well this session. I haven't heard anyone in our league complain about the situation, and it really only seems to be an issue if one leaves a LOT of make up matches til the end of the session, and their handicap can't be adjusted appropriately.

This is the way they have been doing it at the Illinois Billiard Club for over 30 years. It is the same way we do it at Red Shoes and have been doing it for 15 or however many years we have been going. If someone makes up a lot of games at the end, his handicap will go up or down or remain the same as the games are played.
 

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
But doing it that way, players may intentionally wait to play there make-ups so the handicaps are differently.

And on the flip side of that players may intentionally lose a few games to change that game as well.

Thanks for the input !!
Steve

If the handicaps are fair, every game should be winnable so it should not help if you wait to play player A until after you play player B, so to intentionally do so does not make much sense.

To intentionally lose a few games so your handicap goes up with the intended result being that you get a better handicap in one game that you might then win does not seem to make much sense as the net result would be a worse record than winning those "thrown" games and losing the target match.



If you freeze their handicap, it makes the end result unfair. If you miss your game with player A and you were at a certain handicap, for instance 100, then you play player B at your same handicap of 100 and win,Then you get to go back and play player A at 100 and let's say you beat him. Now you have two wins. But if your win against player A would have raised your handicap to the point where your match with player B at a higher handicap would have resulted in a loss, then you have beat the system and ended with two wins.It is fairer to just play everyone at whatever your handicap is at the time of the make-up. It all works out in the end.

It is also difficult to enforce a two week limit for example on getting make-ups done. We make ours flexible so that they can make them up anytime.
 
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14-1StraightMan

High Run 127
Silver Member
You have a wonderful league with many players that signed up. I do not use a handicapped system in my 14.1 league. Handicapping is confusing to me. As for 'make up matches'... I give my players the whole league season to make up matches. I also add a make up month to the end of the season. With players playing in so many other leagues, family needs etc. I think it is a good way to handle make ups.
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
You have a wonderful league with many players that signed up. I do not use a handicapped system in my 14.1 league. Handicapping is confusing to me. As for 'make up matches'... I give my players the whole league season to make up matches. I also add a make up month to the end of the season. With players playing in so many other leagues, family needs etc. I think it is a good way to handle make ups.

i wish i had a non handicap league, a lot to keep up with for weekly handicap changes.

this is why i can't really give out the schedule in advance for the season. because of the handicap shift.

if i had a non-handicap league i wouldnt have to volume of players that i have.

-Steve
 

14-1StraightMan

High Run 127
Silver Member
i wish i had a non handicap league, a lot to keep up with for weekly handicap changes.

this is why i can't really give out the schedule in advance for the season. because of the handicap shift.

if i had a non-handicap league i wouldnt have to volume of players that i have.

-Steve

I think that I have a lot of work to keep up with but nothing compared to you. That is too much. Plus not having a schedule out.... well, I just could not do it.
Right now, I have 24 players with a skill level of either a BCA 'A' player or a upper 'B" player. Everyone plays each other one time. The B's want to learn from the A's to improve on their games. If I get more players that sign up in the next season. I will break the league up into two leagues A's & B's. By then I will know who belongs where. I will also have a option that if a B player does not want to play with the B's they can play with the A's.
I have had a few people contact me about using their handicap system but I have turned them down.
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
I think that I have a lot of work to keep up with but nothing compared to you. That is too much. Plus not having a schedule out.... well, I just could not do it.
Right now, I have 24 players with a skill level of either a BCA 'A' player or a upper 'B" player. Everyone plays each other one time. The B's want to learn from the A's to improve on their games. If I get more players that sign up in the next season. I will break the league up into two leagues A's & B's. By then I will know who belongs where. I will also have a option that if a B player does not want to play with the B's they can play with the A's.
I have had a few people contact me about using their handicap system but I have turned them down.

I do put out a schedule, about halfway through so everyone knows who they are playing when for the rest of the season.

Usually a day or 2 after league night I send out the next weeks matches with new handicaps and times for their matches.

It's not 2 bad, I am working on a new spread sheet that will automatically calculate handicaps for me based on w/l from the previous week.

Rufus Carter (dr9ball) has given me a lot of help and tips with learning Microsoft Excel. He's been a great help and I really appreciate it.

Steve
 

John Biddle

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I posted this in the other forum where you also asked this question, but the dscussion is taking place here, so I'm copying this over.

As you have pointed out, and painfully experienced, managing make up matches is a PITA. I run a straight pool league, we're in our 4th season, and I've been where you are.

In my league, players all have the complete season schedule, along with everyone's name, phone number and email addr, and it's up to them to make a match at any time that's mutually agreeable. This may be a little different than your situation.

I believe there are multiple ways to solve this, each with their pros and cons. If you all play at one particular time, it's obvious who didn't show for the match, so you could just forfeit them. This approach is harsh, but works more or less, since people don't want to forfeit and missing matches becomes less frequent. OTOH, you may not want to be a hard ass and many people will have a good excuse, etc., etc. This approach is also likely to draw fewer people next season, even if they don't drop out immediately. I wouldn't use this one.

I gave up on trying to push people to play on time and just use a small incentive (explained below) but I don't think it works well to cause promptness.

As far as handicapping late matches goes, what I do is always let everyone know what their current skill level is (adjusted after every match) and whenever they play a match they play at their then current handicap. This means that people can play early, late or on time and always be playing at the skill level they have earned to that point.

It is true that this could lead to trouble, as in the following (real life) example. Suppose A & B are scheduled to play this week, but for some reason, B is unavailable until the weekend. A, however, is going out of town next week for two weeks and wants to play those matches early to avoid being behind when he returns when the season will be almost over. A plays C at his then current skill level and looses big. His skill level drops. He also plays D, now at the newer, lower skill level and again looses and his skill level drops again. The weekend comes and A & B meet to play. B is now upset that he has to give A a bigger spot than he expected to give him had they played a few days ago.

I had a B quit over this when I wouldn't change A's skill level back to what it was before he played C & D. My logic was/is that had A won both of the matches against C & D and his skill level had gone up, B wouldn't have been griping, and he can't have it both ways. Always playing at what you've currently earned seems to me to be the fairest way to do it, and even the person who quit has come back in a subsequent season.

The only way I would give credibility to the alternative approach is if I could be convinced that someone could choose to play their schedule out of order in a way that gave them an advantage, and I don't really see how they could do this without being obvious, and I would deal with that one on one.

In my experience, people want to play, they don't want forfeits. Being as flexible as possible will help you keep the most players in an age where people's schedules are all over the map.

As to the small incentive I mentioned earlier, we split our prize money into two pools, one for a small tournament at the end of the season, and a bigger portion for a Bonus Points pool, which we pay out on a pro rata share to everyone still in the league at the end of the season. Points are awarded for wins (15) and winning margin (1 add'l point for every 10% the loser is below their target) so a win where the loser only reached 57% of his target would be worth 20 point to the winner and none to the loser. The idea is to encourage people to play their very best in every game.

Points are also awarded for high runs > 2% (5 points) of handicap and > 3% of handicap (10 points). These are awarded to winners a/o losers as appropriate every week.

The last two point awards are also incentives. Players get 2 points for playing their match in the correct week and 1 for being only 1 week late. Since I have players submit a match results sheet with their $ contributions, I award 1 ppoint to each player if the sheet is filled in completely and none if it isn't (since I'll have to follow up to get the data).

Early on I used to update the schedule with info on all the played matches, and I would fill in the skill levels of the upcoming matches as well. I would repost this new data at the pool hall regularly and send it out in an email at the end of each week.

I stopped doing that, because it was a reminder for anyone with old matches, what the skill levels were at the time those matches were current. Now, I don't fill in that info in the schedule until the match is over. Players get the current skill level info from the standings sheet to determine the spot.

Unless a player went out of his way to record the then current skill levels for each of his matches, which seems very unlikely to me, it would be tedious to figure out what the spot would have been for a weeks old match.
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
I posted this in the other forum where you also asked this question, but the dscussion is taking place here, so I'm copying this over.

As you have pointed out, and painfully experienced, managing make up matches is a PITA. I run a straight pool league, we're in our 4th season, and I've been where you are.

In my league, players all have the complete season schedule, along with everyone's name, phone number and email addr, and it's up to them to make a match at any time that's mutually agreeable. This may be a little different than your situation.

I believe there are multiple ways to solve this, each with their pros and cons. If you all play at one particular time, it's obvious who didn't show for the match, so you could just forfeit them. This approach is harsh, but works more or less, since people don't want to forfeit and missing matches becomes less frequent. OTOH, you may not want to be a hard ass and many people will have a good excuse, etc., etc. This approach is also likely to draw fewer people next season, even if they don't drop out immediately. I wouldn't use this one.

I gave up on trying to push people to play on time and just use a small incentive (explained below) but I don't think it works well to cause promptness.

As far as handicapping late matches goes, what I do is always let everyone know what their current skill level is (adjusted after every match) and whenever they play a match they play at their then current handicap. This means that people can play early, late or on time and always be playing at the skill level they have earned to that point.

It is true that this could lead to trouble, as in the following (real life) example. Suppose A & B are scheduled to play this week, but for some reason, B is unavailable until the weekend. A, however, is going out of town next week for two weeks and wants to play those matches early to avoid being behind when he returns when the season will be almost over. A plays C at his then current skill level and looses big. His skill level drops. He also plays D, now at the newer, lower skill level and again looses and his skill level drops again. The weekend comes and A & B meet to play. B is now upset that he has to give A a bigger spot than he expected to give him had they played a few days ago.

I had a B quit over this when I wouldn't change A's skill level back to what it was before he played C & D. My logic was/is that had A won both of the matches against C & D and his skill level had gone up, B wouldn't have been griping, and he can't have it both ways. Always playing at what you've currently earned seems to me to be the fairest way to do it, and even the person who quit has come back in a subsequent season.

The only way I would give credibility to the alternative approach is if I could be convinced that someone could choose to play their schedule out of order in a way that gave them an advantage, and I don't really see how they could do this without being obvious, and I would deal with that one on one.

In my experience, people want to play, they don't want forfeits. Being as flexible as possible will help you keep the most players in an age where people's schedules are all over the map.

As to the small incentive I mentioned earlier, we split our prize money into two pools, one for a small tournament at the end of the season, and a bigger portion for a Bonus Points pool, which we pay out on a pro rata share to everyone still in the league at the end of the season. Points are awarded for wins (15) and winning margin (1 add'l point for every 10% the loser is below their target) so a win where the loser only reached 57% of his target would be worth 20 point to the winner and none to the loser. The idea is to encourage people to play their very best in every game.

Points are also awarded for high runs > 2% (5 points) of handicap and > 3% of handicap (10 points). These are awarded to winners a/o losers as appropriate every week.

The last two point awards are also incentives. Players get 2 points for playing their match in the correct week and 1 for being only 1 week late. Since I have players submit a match results sheet with their $ contributions, I award 1 ppoint to each player if the sheet is filled in completely and none if it isn't (since I'll have to follow up to get the data).

Early on I used to update the schedule with info on all the played matches, and I would fill in the skill levels of the upcoming matches as well. I would repost this new data at the pool hall regularly and send it out in an email at the end of each week.

I stopped doing that, because it was a reminder for anyone with old matches, what the skill levels were at the time those matches were current. Now, I don't fill in that info in the schedule until the match is over. Players get the current skill level info from the standings sheet to determine the spot.

Unless a player went out of his way to record the then current skill levels for each of his matches, which seems very unlikely to me, it would be tedious to figure out what the spot would have been for a weeks old match.

Thanks so much John for your detailed response.

i have a lot to think about for next season

-Steve
 

Corwyn_8

Energy Curmudgeon
Silver Member
The ideal mathematical handicap system would have (at least) the following characteristics.

a) Zero-sum, that is the total average rating of all players remains constant.

b) Any given game should have a predicted outcome of 50/50.

c) Commutative, it shouldn't matter which order games are played in. Or in fact, if the ratings changes are done one at a time, or all at the end.

d) Throwing games should never help.

e) Ratings should not slip against a (hypothetical) objective standard, either up or down.

f) Handicaps and ratings should be as fine grained as possible (ratings with at least 1000 values would be my recommendation. Chess is a good example with ratings ranging from 1000-2500 or so).

g) Should obey Bayes' Theorem.

Needless to say, these constraints might be mutually exclusive.

Ratings should NOT be touted as 'skill level', at best they are a simple record of past performance. And are always to be considered approximate. Ratings change for two reasons: Approximation being refined, and actual skill levels changing. There is no way to determine which is which. Skill levels change in both directions (sadly).

Another hopes one might have for a rating system, is that it should encourage players to play. One consequence of this is that the obvious way to satisfy a) namely, start new players at the average rating, will be disheartening to less skilled players, as their rating will initially drop precipitously, possibly causing them to quit. Having them start low, and giving 'bonus points' for every game played such that after enough games those points add up to the average minus the initial, might be preferred.

SO:
I would treat no-shows as loss (or possibly, loss + penalty). Rescheduled games are played at ratings as they exist at the rescheduled time. All rules for how ratings work should be posted for all to see.

In Steve's real world example, B should be pointed at the rules, and told to suck it up.

Since games are handicapped, the amount of change to ratings after a game should all be the same, but this change will need to be larger when the league is young rather than when it is more mature (as ratings are more accurate). Or by number of games each player has played.

Thank You Kindly.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The ideal mathematical handicap system would have (at least) the following characteristics.

a) Zero-sum, that is the total average rating of all players remains constant.

b) Any given game should have a predicted outcome of 50/50.

... .
You are describing the system that has been used in this area since around 1980, pretty much. It is also more or less FargoRate. But I think you missed the "robustness" factor in FargoRate which is important and varies with each player.
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
The ideal mathematical handicap system would have (at least) the following characteristics.

a) Zero-sum, that is the total average rating of all players remains constant.

b) Any given game should have a predicted outcome of 50/50.

c) Commutative, it shouldn't matter which order games are played in. Or in fact, if the ratings changes are done one at a time, or all at the end.

d) Throwing games should never help.

e) Ratings should not slip against a (hypothetical) objective standard, either up or down.

f) Handicaps and ratings should be as fine grained as possible (ratings with at least 1000 values would be my recommendation. Chess is a good example with ratings ranging from 1000-2500 or so).

g) Should obey Bayes' Theorem.

Needless to say, these constraints might be mutually exclusive.

Ratings should NOT be touted as 'skill level', at best they are a simple record of past performance. And are always to be considered approximate. Ratings change for two reasons: Approximation being refined, and actual skill levels changing. There is no way to determine which is which. Skill levels change in both directions (sadly).

Another hopes one might have for a rating system, is that it should encourage players to play. One consequence of this is that the obvious way to satisfy a) namely, start new players at the average rating, will be disheartening to less skilled players, as their rating will initially drop precipitously, possibly causing them to quit. Having them start low, and giving 'bonus points' for every game played such that after enough games those points add up to the average minus the initial, might be preferred.

SO:
I would treat no-shows as loss (or possibly, loss + penalty). Rescheduled games are played at ratings as they exist at the rescheduled time. All rules for how ratings work should be posted for all to see.

In Steve's real world example, B should be pointed at the rules, and told to suck it up.

Since games are handicapped, the amount of change to ratings after a game should all be the same, but this change will need to be larger when the league is young rather than when it is more mature (as ratings are more accurate). Or by number of games each player has played.

Thank You Kindly.

You are describing the system that has been used in this area since around 1980, pretty much. It is also more or less FargoRate. But I think you missed the "robustness" factor in FargoRate which is important and varies with each player.


This all seems very complex and way over my head.

can you explain it in lay-mans terms ?

thanks a bunch guys !!

-Steve
 

Corwyn_8

Energy Curmudgeon
Silver Member
You are describing the system that has been used in this area since around 1980, pretty much. It is also more or less FargoRate. But I think you missed the "robustness" factor in FargoRate which is important and varies with each player.

Yes, I remember adapting your system for my own use.

I did allude to robustness in my last paragraph. Thinking more on it, and checking FargoRate, it occurs to me that robustness might be better displayed as a ± value. This would make it more intuitive for people.

Thank You Kindly.

p.s. I had many a good conversation with you back in the days of R.S.B, I have just joined here, and look forward to many more. It is good to see you are still pushing pool forwards.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
This all seems very complex and way over my head.

can you explain it in lay-mans terms ?

thanks a bunch guys !!

-Steve
The basic idea is to give each player a rating, base handicaps on the difference in ratings between the two players, and adjust the rating of a player by a small amount after each match. In the FargoRate system and in the local 14.1 leagues (about 4 of them), a 100-point rating difference means that the two players would play at a 2:1 ratio -- 100 to 50 points, for example. In the local leagues, a player moves 3 rating points for a win or loss. The local leagues do not look at differences in scores, but I think FargoRate does. FargoRate also adjusts new players faster than veteran players.

See http://sfbilliards.com/cal_league.txt for how the league I run works and http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/14.1_charts.htm for handicap charts that give fair matches versus rating differences.
For my league, the current standings are available at: http://aspastats.appspot.com/Cal/
The last link also gives fair matches for any two players which is used on league night. Or, two players and arrange their own match.
 
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