3D Printed stimpmeter

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
@Badpenguin

The ball exits the ram tangent to the table. It's currently designed to be touching 3 things simultaneously. The nose of the cushion, the ramp, the table bed. Now depending on how much the rail compresses, it will be on the table bed a tiny bit of distance.

I did it this way to attempt to remove the bed cloth speed/condition factor from the rail/cushion response. Presumably, the hard surface of the 3d printed ramp would not change significantly over time, and would lead to more consistent readings over time.

Bob's suggestions may be throwing a curve ball into my design, but that's where my head was when I did that portion.

A few pictures below:

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1720538444978.png


1720538221442.png
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you look at the last picture in the immediately above post, the ramp could actually extend under the rail over 1” and the ball would remain at the same height. This would prevent the ball from touching the bed cloth entirely. (If I raised the track one paper thickness). That’s one of two reasons I have tracks to the side of the ball rather than under.

The second reason is the edge of the ramp can be fat, rather than come to a razor edge if it was under the ball. This is better for manufacturing.
 

Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
This really has taken a turn for the fkn retarded to say the least

No one needs to know results of this
No one will read all of the data
No one will have the balls to take this in a pool room and try to explain to the house pro why it’s needed .
Holy smokes, bro. First the fargorate thread, now this.

If the BCA had a rail tester category in their hall of fame, they’d name it after you.
 

Badpenguin

Well-known member
If you look at the last picture in the immediately above post, the ramp could actually extend under the rail over 1” and the ball would remain at the same height. This would prevent the ball from touching the bed cloth entirely. (If I raised the track one paper thickness). That’s one of two reasons I have tracks to the side of the ball rather than under.

The second reason is the edge of the ramp can be fat, rather than come to a razor edge if it was under the ball. This is better for manufacturing.
Hmm. Maybe something like a piece of track that can be used, so the ball would run along the track instead of the bed/cloth. Eliminate cloth/humidity from the equation altogether? Think Hot Wheels track.

Just thinking out loud...
 

pvc lou

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This really has taken a turn for the fkn retarded to say the least

No one needs to know results of this
No one will read all of the data
No one will have the balls to take this in a pool room and try to explain to the house pro why it’s needed .
Hey man, I'm pretty fkin nerdy...but golly...this is too much.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This really has taken a turn for the fkn retarded to say the least

No one needs to know results of this
No one will read all of the data
No one will have the balls to take this in a pool room and try to explain to the house pro why it’s needed .
Well you are one of the people saying there is no difference between different brands of tables, and that Diamond tables play like God. This is one way to put numbers to that.

Also out of curiosity, I read the wiki page of the Golf Stimpmeter yesterday. The inventor of that, Mr Stimpson in 1935, was convinced a certain course played way too fast. He invented the whole Stimpmeter to prove it. Now almost 100 years later, every single golf course uses it, and every single golf player knows what the numbers mean.

Wiki text copy/paste
It was designed in 1935 by golfer Edward S. Stimpson, Sr. (1904–1985).[1][2][3] The Massachusetts state amateur champion and former Harvard golf team captain, Stimpson was a spectator at the 1935 U.S. Open at Oakmont near Pittsburgh, where the winning score was 299 (+11). After witnessing a putt by a top professional (Gene Sarazen, a two-time champion) roll off a green, Stimpson was convinced the greens were unreasonably fast, but wondered how he could prove it. He developed a device, made of wood, now known as the Stimpmeter, which is an angled track that releases a ball at a known velocity so that the distance it rolls on a green's surface can be measured.[4]

And the very end of the wiki:
The greens at Oakmont Country Club (where the device was conceived) are some of the fastest in the world, with readings of 15 feet (4.6 m).[9]
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hmm. Maybe something like a piece of track that can be used, so the ball would run along the track instead of the bed/cloth. Eliminate cloth/humidity from the equation altogether? Think Hot Wheels track.

Just thinking out loud...
I guess the root question, and probably this is where Bob was going with his suggestions, is do we want to simulate the entire ball to cushion response as close as possible to a real game of pool? Or, do we want to attempt to isolate the cushion portion from the bed portion, as much as possible. I took the later approach, thinking it would be more accurate, and easier to design. I'm not set on it though, and I'd like to try Bob's suggestion as well.

What my ramp is doing (I think) is evaluating the cushion in two ways: One, its springiness, which is dependent on its composition (to include the whole wood rail assembly backing the cushion). Two, is its shape and location. How the nose of the cushion pinches the ball downward is still valid when using the ramp.

If we were evaluating only the composition of the rubber, then I think a pendulum/drop test would be better. That's what Brunswick had on its superspeed cushions on an old video. Here is a screenshot of a tester dropping a steel ball and measuring how high it bounces. The whole SuperSpeed video is quite interesting for pool table fans.

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Video link:
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey man, I'm pretty fkin nerdy...but golly...this is too much.
Could be, and I get that. On the other hand, if someone spent a lot of time developing something, and then offered the final product for sale on amazon, we'd all probably be like: "Oh wow, that's cool. Maybe I can use that at the club and try it on different tables".

If that same person was watching the whole process from start to finish, they might be sick of it by the time it was finished.

I just thought it would be cool to share. I have the knowledge and means to design something (its my dayjob). Plus, the smarter than me phd's on here, in both math and actual playing pool, can help me.

I love pool, I love designing and making things. I've had a hammer in my hand from age 3, and a pool cue in my hand from age 12 or so. Why not combine and share with my AZB buddies?:)
 

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
When new equipment gets released in software development, its common to performance test it.

The new stimpmeter can also serve as a way to test if balls to rebound off the rail properly.

In pool rooms its common that balls get moved around sets, a stimpmeter can filter the phenolic resin balls from the polyester resin balls.

Using the stimp meter as a way to measure the cueball speed, at low speeds and long distances would be another benefit of the device.

In golf they have the hole in one or the long put.

Which pool pro can hit three rails and not fall off the ledge of the stimpmeter? I can think of five versions of trickshots for using a stimp meter as a performance standard metric. Send one to Venom and see what happens.

Thanks for sharing. BARPA is planning a big product release soon.
 

Badpenguin

Well-known member
I guess the root question, and probably this is where Bob was going with his suggestions, is do we want to simulate the entire ball to cushion response as close as possible to a real game of pool? Or, do we want to attempt to isolate the cushion portion from the bed portion, as much as possible. I took the later approach, thinking it would be more accurate, and easier to design. I'm not set on it though, and I'd like to try Bob's suggestion as well.

Personally, I'd like to know why people perceive diamonds to be faster/bouncier, and if it is actually true. If they are, it could possibly be caused by multiple things. The cloth, humidity in the room, rail bolt tightness, rail nose height/angle, the rubber itself? Whichever testing method can best answer all those questions ;)

I often hear commentators say that TV tables are fast because of the lights, or slow because of the number of people in the room. LED lights don't put off that much heat, so I wonder if what they are saying is still true. Either way, I would like to have a device that can test the ball roll on the cloth also. Take a measurement in the morning, afternoon, evening, any difference? I think what you are doing could help for that also.

Would all this be valuable information to a pro? Dunno.
 

TrxR

Well-known member
Personally, I'd like to know why people perceive diamonds to be faster/bouncier, and if it is actually true. If they are, it could possibly be caused by multiple things. The cloth, humidity in the room, rail bolt tightness, rail nose height/angle, the rubber itself? Whichever testing method can best answer all those questions ;)

I often hear commentators say that TV tables are fast because of the lights, or slow because of the number of people in the room. LED lights don't put off that much heat, so I wonder if what they are saying is still true. Either way, I would like to have a device that can test the ball roll on the cloth also. Take a measurement in the morning, afternoon, evening, any difference? I think what you are doing could help for that also.

Would all this be valuable information to a pro? Dunno.
From what I've read a stiffer rail construction can change things as well. In the snooker forums they claim the steel backed rails are faster due to being a fair bit stiffer.
 

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
For cushion recoil the angle of contact will determine how the force is distributed. Simulating different bounces for the edge geometry would be an experimental way to analyze bounce properties.

Lasers theoretically bounce perpendicularly off the flat surfaces. Balls are subject to an infinite number of contact geometries.

The most interesting being should the ball bounce perfectly like a laser?

Do billiard manufacturers struggle with enhancing the rail design to achieve ideal performance?
 

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
If you print a turn rail and return shoot, you have a billiard ball return machine.

If you add a motor you can see who shoots moving targets best.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I made some minor changes for tonights testing. I'll be at a room that has super super super bouncy tables, bought brand new from this year's expo.

Added a second, lower location for the ball drop. With this location I think I should be able to not hit the end rail long ways, but still hit the side rail short ways. I will try Bob's method with a tape measure using this ramp position.
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I added some structure to the release to minimize the flexing and creep over time. I also made it a bit longer in the front to hold onto the ball better.
1720645449602.png
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I also bought a temp/humidty gauge, and 2 different durometer type measuring gauges. The one on the left is Shore A. I was concerned it would be too sharp and damage the cloth when testing the cushion, so I also ordered the one on the right, which is labeled Shore O. I believe its a Chinese mis-label, (or a different standard altogether), as it does not conform to the Shore O or any of the Durometer types on the Wiki page. It has a 3mm diameter spherical point. It looks ideal not to damage anything.
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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I guess the root question, and probably this is where Bob was going with his suggestions, is do we want to simulate the entire ball to cushion response as close as possible to a real game of pool?...
I think the main goal is to measure how much the ball slows down when it hits the rail. What fraction of speed or energy does it loose? That's what affects play. I think either method can do that but you want it to be as close to a normal rail contact as possible to avoid bugs.
 

tomatoshooter

Well-known member
I can't figure out what I'd do with the info/data.
Yeah, agree. I don't know that it would have any practical use:)
The only benefit I had was it made me feel better about my home table once i quantified the difference between it and a Diamond. My home table is slower than I like, but not as much as I thought.
Yeah, I don't think you could break one out before your next tournament and get anything but if you are thinking about a different cloth, you could compare some that way. I think it could be useful from a table mechanic perspective but not from ap player perspective. Here's mine
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20240710_210059.jpg

It was initially designed to make sure my vision is centered and I realized it also works as a stimpmeter. It's a little fussy because the groove is small. It actually doesn't work as well as I'd like for the vision thing either. Mark II will have some improvements. The one inch height gets me just over 5 diamonds on my 8' table. I think that's a good roll but I'd like to make part of it taller to check cushion height and incorporate a ball marker function as well.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I couldn't test it tonight. I was running late for the tournament, got there as the matches were being called, and played non-stop all night after losing my first match. I ended up getting 3rd place in an open field.
 

kling&allen

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
I also bought a temp/humidty gauge, and 2 different durometer type measuring gauges. The one on the left is Shore A. I was concerned it would be too sharp and damage the cloth when testing the cushion, so I also ordered the one on the right, which is labeled Shore O. I believe its a Chinese mis-label, (or a different standard altogether), as it does not conform to the Shore O or any of the Durometer types on the Wiki page. It has a 3mm diameter spherical point. It looks ideal not to damage anything.
View attachment 766828

Are you using the durometer to measure the compressibility of the cushions?
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Are you using the durometer to measure the compressibility of the cushions?
doesn't seem possible with any of those, the spring won't push as far as a pool ball? he can measure the rubber hardness, but then again one could just ask diamond or manufacturer
 
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