8-Ball Strategy!

[Colin Colenso]

I began this thread, partly in response to the comment below by PoolBum in the Ronnie O'Sullivan thread. I think the points are well worth expanding upon.

Hmm...I find it surprising that a pro snooker player would find understanding 8-Ball strategy very difficult. I don't think it's especially difficult to understand the right patterns in 8-Ball, and I would think that 8-Ball is the best game for a top snooker player who wants to compete against the top pool players. Based on my own experience, it's definitely the game that I would have the best chance at of beating the top pro pool players, but then maybe I'm especially good at reading the table at 8-Ball.

I actually think there is quite a lot to learn about 8-ball strategy.

Let's focus on reading a layout to begin. In most cases, for a high level player, the goal is to go out most times they get a shot.

To do this, you want to choose the highest percentage route, and perhaps even consider a route that won't leave the opponent an easy out should you fail during the attempt.

There are hundreds of possible ball orders and pathways to consider. I believe it takes years of experience, tons of practice and a good pool mind to analyse these very quickly, filter out the irrelevant and make estimations of likelihood of success of taking various routes.

Sometimes the layout it not too hard and any decent player can finish them off, but it's the 50% of times where creating an out requires overcoming some tricky obstacles, and this is where the 8-ball specialist shines. Going out when most would have considered the table safe.

This is why players like Efren can run out such high percentages of their visits to the table.

If anyone wants to explain their own perspective on 8-ball strategy, route planning etc., I would like to hear them....and then flame them

 

[Fred Agnir]

If anyone wants to explain their own perspective on 8-ball strategy, route planning etc., I would like to hear them....and then flame them

This is more for advance play rather than learning play:

On a 9' table, the break is everything for top players. Because of the pyramid pattern, no ball is going to rocket in a corner pocket, so finding the combination of making a ball consistently and spreading the pack sufficiently is a must. Everytime I break, I'm always looking at the head ball in the side pocket, and where it did or didn't go.

The more I study card games, the more complete my 8-ball game becomes. As I get out of line, I have a better feel for the assessing my chances and making my decision today. What are my chances of winning if I lay down a safety versus my chance if I go for the runout right here? That is, the old saying of "don't go for the runout if you can't get all the way out" needs refinement as you get better.

Most of the time in 8-ball, if I've pocketed two or three balls with the intent of running out, there's no turning back.

Because of this, you must take more chances at shots that might not be as high of a percentage in, say, 9-ball. Banks and combinations are "must shoot" more often than in 9-ball.

Leaving hanging balls does you no good. It's a false sense of security.

The hanging ball is the toughest to play position with. The balls in the center of table are the toughest to play postion to. Get rid of both early, not later.

Unlike 14.1, leaving balls on/close to the rail within a couple of diamonds to the hole is a good idea. Leaving balls in the center of the table is a bad idea. This is based on the idea of cueball patterns and paths.

For safety play:

Sometimes, you have to play safe. My one piece of advice is to get the most out of a safety. Don't be content in just trying to hide the cueball. If you have two object balls left, move one in a strong position. Remember the up and down principle. If your opponent's best shot will leave the cueball up table, make sure one of your balls is up there after your safety. If balls are tied up, untie them.

Fred

 

[pete lafond]

Sometimes, you have to play safe. My one piece of advice is to get the most out of a safety. Don't be content in just trying to hide the cueball. If you have two object balls left, move one in a strong position. Remember the up and down principle. If your opponent's best shot will leave the cueball up table, make sure one of your balls is up there after your safety. If balls are tied up, untie them.

Fred

Some thoughts Fred;

If you have two balls left and opponent has 4 or more and is a strong player, your safe will not cut it. You will most likely lose. At this point you are simply struggling and hoping for luck. Even if your two balls are hanging in the pocket.

8 Ball is an offensive game. Pick the best balls to work with first, they may even be the ones not hanging in the pockets. If you can not run out now, plan an early safe. Give the safe purpose (every shot has a purpose) such as forcing the opponents to kick at his ball that will cause an improvement for yours. Also as you play safe position one or more of your balls for improved play.

And most important in 8 ball, the LUCK is not in your opponent making balls rather in their messing up your good run out pattern. And it does not require skill to do this. Bottom line, playing safes can be hazardous. Key is "RUN OUT" as soon as you can. Bump balls occasionally for position play and to open up your balls and to tie up theirs.

 

[chefjeff]

If you can't runout, dirty out.

Everything else is subordinate.

OK, not everything. For example, choosing solids or stripes is one of the most important decisions. Or...and few do this...or NOT choosing either and playing safe right off the bat is an effective strategy. This can "force" your opponent to take the lessor choice of the two, thus rendering his end game more worthless than yours.

Speaking of "end game" strategy...much like the game of chess, think two or three moves ahead instead of going for the King (8-ball) as fast as possible. Each move removes an obstacle for you and creates an obstacle for your opponent. Suddenly, there's that King, vulnerable and waiting to be had.

I'll stop and I look forward to others' input into the best game in the world!

Jeff Livingston

 

[pete lafond]

If you can't runout, dirty out.


Speaking of "end game" strategy...much like the game of chess, think two or three moves ahead instead of going for the King (8-ball) as fast as possible. Each move removes an obstacle for you and creates an obstacle for your opponent. Suddenly, there's that King, vulnerable and waiting to be had.

I'll stop and I look forward to others' input into the best game in the world!

Jeff Livingston

You hopefully do not get to this point. Many safes played in todays eight ball are because the players are not shot makers and strong position players. The result is that more strategies have beeen introduced to compensate for this.

"Safety Break" favor a good 14.1 player. Try one of these breaks and you will most likely lose.

As you said, your first decision on picking solids or stripes is one of the more important ones.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Some good comments by all you guys!

The game has so many complexities it is hard to make a whole list of concrete rules to follow. But I'll offer a couple of thoughts here that I think play some importance in the game.

1. Spot the ball that you will use to get onto the 8-ball to finish and then look backwards from that to find your 2nd and 3rd last ball options.

2. I don't mind potting 3 or 4 balls and then playing safety if out of position. But when I get to the my last 2 balls before the 8-ball I know I'm usually in deep trouble if I don't complete the out.

 

[lewdo26]

I'm surprised no one has said anything about the 8 ball. It could be in a precarious position, it could be controlled by one group of balls or another...

After the break you should go straight to the 8 ball to look for:

a) pockets available, if any;

b) a key ball and lead ball;

c) *good* break balls in case it's tied up;

Another interesting strategic feature is, after the break, if you look at the layout, usually one group of balls is more "connected", like stepping stones... that is, one ball leads to another. The opposing group may have an isolated ball or two that serve no purpose, and that is a HUGE problem.

Usually one ball or cluster will decide the whole fate of the game, and the choice of groups. If you got the worst group, remaneuvering against a good player is tough.

I also enjoy certain specialty shots or combinations of specialty shots that arise in 8 ball. Though on a 9 footer those come about much more rarely... rail-first caroms, billiards off a cluster of balls, kicking at a dead combination, etc.

Great game. The tougher the opponent, the riskier it is to play safe (much like 9 ball), so you better lock 'em up real good and make sure there is a distinct advantage you're going to get off of his shot. If the opponent is a pushover, then the good manager beats the good shotmaker. Strategic knowleadge is a must.

As far as clusters are concerned, 14.1 will teach all you need to know, with a few twitches here and there because in 8 ball you're trying to move YOUR balls to a favorable location, and your opponent's to hell. There is usually a ball or a side of a ball that you'll wanna contact in a breakout to get the desired result. And a correct speed...

I rarely play the game, but when I do, I rather play 8 ball on the barbox, myself. Even still, those Accu-stats 8 ball tapes were pretty entertaining.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I'm surprised no one has said anything about the 8 ball. It could be in a precarious position, it could be controlled by one group of balls or another...

After the break you should go straight to the 8 ball to look for:

a) pockets available, if any;

b) a key ball and lead ball;

c) *good* break balls in case it's tied up;

Another interesting strategic feature is, after the break, if you look at the layout, usually one group of balls is more "connected", like stepping stones... that is, one ball leads to another. The opposing group may have an isolated ball or two that serve no purpose, and that is a HUGE problem.

Usually one ball or cluster will decide the whole fate of the game, and the choice of groups. If you got the worst group, remaneuvering against a good player is tough.

I also enjoy certain specialty shots or combinations of specialty shots that arise in 8 ball. Though on a 9 footer those come about much more rarely... rail-first caroms, billiards off a cluster of balls, kicking at a dead combination, etc.

Great game. The tougher the opponent, the riskier it is to play safe (much like 9 ball), so you better lock 'em up real good and make sure there is a distinct advantage you're going to get off of his shot. If the opponent is a pushover, then the good manager beats the good shotmaker. Strategic knowleadge is a must.

Good points Lewdo,
You're right re checking out the 8-ball to see where available or how to kiss it out.

Another point you alluded to is that in 8-ball, once commited, or even to open up a chance for the game, some creative big shots come into play. Definitely moreso than in 9-ball, where there is usually a good percentage safety option. Hence in 8-ball I often have a chance to play masse shots, plants, combinations that just wouldn't be percentage shots in 9-ball.

So 8-ball events are likely lead to more and better highlight shots that we see in 9-ball, where a jump shot is about the most exciting thing we ever see.

 

[GStrong]

One Ball Hell...

Hello there, I am fairly new to the group...

I guess I am at the stage that I am consistently ending up with one ball or the eight ball, to my opponents 6 or 7 balls, and then end up losing the game, watching my opponent either finish his run or leave me with no shot. It's so, so, painful. I will run-out a small percentage of the time, or actually get a shot to finish my run (especially against lesser players) but more often than not, when playing the better players, I end up in ONE BALL HELL!!!

Hopefully with time and experience, it will get better.

Gary

 

[Colin Colenso]

Hello there, I am fairly new to the group...

I guess I am at the stage that I am consistently ending up with one ball or the eight ball, to my opponents 6 or 7 balls, and then end up losing the game, watching my opponent either finish his run or leave me with no shot. It's so, so, painful. I will run-out a small percentage of the time, or actually get a shot to finish my run (especially against lesser players) but more often than not, when playing the better players, I end up in ONE BALL HELL!!!

Hopefully with time and experience, it will get better.

Gary

Hi Gary,
Good to see you on the boards!

if you're getting down to your last 2 balls b4 your opponents, you are probably a reasonable potter. But you'll need to check your strategy. Against and experienced player, even if they can't pot so well but know stragtegy, it is very risky to pot down to your last 2 balls unless you can finish, or at least knock one of the last couple over a corner pocket while leaving the CB difficult for them.

Don't race to pot more balls than your opponent. It's usually quite good to be 5-7 balls behind and have almost total control save a huge shot from the oppnent to rescue himself.

 

[BigRigTom]

1 ball hell

Hello there, I am fairly new to the group...

I guess I am at the stage that I am consistently ending up with one ball or the eight ball, to my opponents 6 or 7 balls, and then end up losing the game, watching my opponent either finish his run or leave me with no shot. It's so, so, painful. I will run-out a small percentage of the time, or actually get a shot to finish my run (especially against lesser players) but more often than not, when playing the better players, I end up in ONE BALL HELL!!!

Hopefully with time and experience, it will get better.

Gary

Hi Gary,
Been there myself!
I spent an entire season in 1-ball hell and I don't wish that on anyone.

Then at the beginning of the next season one of the APA 7's on the oposing team came over to me after I managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (gave up a 4 to 1 lead and lost 5 to 4) and said "Man you shot great but you have to start looking for your safety shot a LOT sooner."

All of a sudden the light went on. I had been clearing the table for my oponent and then he would simply keep tucking away the cue ball until his balls were all set then ....OUT HE WOULD GO!
My game turned up a notch that night and I managed to win 8 of the next 10 matches...went from an APA skill level 5 to a 6.
Now I am on to other weaknesses in my game but it is always fun to look back and remember that turning point.

 

[pete lafond]

Hi Gary,
Been there myself!
I spent an entire season in 1-ball hell and I don't wish that on anyone.

Then at the beginning of the next season one of the APA 7's on the oposing team came over to me after I managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (gave up a 4 to 1 lead and lost 5 to 4) and said "Man you shot great but you have to start looking for your safety shot a LOT sooner."

All of a sudden the light went on. I had been clearing the table for my oponent and then he would simply keep tucking away the cue ball until his balls were all set then ....OUT HE WOULD GO!

You will then gain another strength again when you look at a table early and run out or duck quick. Running out is what a strong player does well. I have played many players in my short lived league days that tried to duck instead of going for the run out. As good as they thought they were, they would ultimately lose.

On a small bar table, kicking skills really shine, it's too easy. What a player soon realized is that a defensive kick would leave them in worse position than before. Run, Run, Run - you have to. Good shot making and quality cue ball control makes this a much easier task.

You will realize that you are improving when you are running out more often and playing duck less often.

 

[lewdo26]

You will then gain another strength again when you look at a table early and run out or duck quick. Running out is what a strong player does well. I have played many players in my short lived league days that tried to duck instead of going for the run out. As good as they thought they were, they would ultimately lose.

On a small bar table, kicking skills really shine, it's too easy. What a player soon realized is that a defensive kick would leave them in worse position than before. Run, Run, Run - you have to. Good shot making and quality cue ball control makes this a much easier task.

You will realize that you are improving when you are running out more often and playing duck less often.

Good points, Pete. But I'd look at the quality of the player I'm facing. I know that goes against the "play the table" philosophy, but... If I'm playing someone who'll regularly clear the table for me, and not get out (even good players with no strategy do that), I'M IN NO HURRY.

Facing a tough opponent, I think your advice says it best. I know I'm not going to win the kick-safety battle ANYWAYS.

 

[Fred Agnir]

Some thoughts Fred;

If you have two balls left and opponent has 4 or more and is a strong player, your safe will not cut it. You will most likely lose. At this point you are simply struggling and hoping for luck. Even if your two balls are hanging in the pocket.

No disagreement here. That's why I said... okay no that was a different thread. I agree with you. In fact, ... didnt' I write..? Yes I did. Oh forget it.

8 Ball is an offensive game. .

I thought I emphasized these two points as well, but apparently not. So, I'll highlight them.

8-ball is an offensive game at even the average level.

Fred

 

[pete lafond]

No disagreement here. That's why I said... okay no that was a different thread. I agree with you. In fact, ... didnt' I write..? Yes I did. Oh forget it.


I thought I emphasized these two points as well, but apparently not. So, I'll highlight them.

8-ball is an offensive game at even the average level.

Fred

Thanks Fred, very good points point. I always enjoy your posts.

 

[pete lafond]

Good points, Pete. But I'd look at the quality of the player I'm facing. I know that goes against the "play the table" philosophy, but... If I'm playing someone who'll regularly clear the table for me, and not get out (even good players with no strategy do that), I'M IN NO HURRY.

QUOTE]

I will get somewhat into this mode and for me is because I get lazy, which is not a good thing I guess.

 

[Snapshot9]

thoughts ...

I disagree about always having to have a ball close
to the 8 to shoot right before the 8. I have seen
many a player mess up a run because they were
trying to 'save' that ball to shoot right before the 8.
It's okay if you can do it, but if you need it for the
run, or for shape in the run, IMO, you are better taking
it for the run. Besides, we all know that a good player
will get on the 8 no matter where his last ball is.

I love the guys that always take solids because they
like them better than stripes... Gets them into trouble
a lot.

When evaluating the rack after the break, you must
evaluate which ones are runnable with the LEAST amount
of problems involved, or the best chance of a run, given
break out shots, combos, etc..

It's funny, but you can give advice in Pool, they can kind
of acknowledge what you say, but don't start doing it
until they experience firsthand on the table, then the
lightbulb goes on. It is just like that in teaching someone
about computers too.... lol Perhaps what we really need
to be teaching is ABSTRACT THINKING.

 

[chefjeff]

I disagree about always having to have a ball close
to the 8 to shoot right before the 8. (snip).

Me, too. In fact, having your key ball be close to the 8 is usually the wrong thing to do. It seems that 9-ball players make this error more than do 8-ballers....not sure why, but it seems that way in my experience.

Sometimes the best key ball (the ball just before the 8-ball, btw) is one that is down table, easy to shoot, and blocking a pocket nicely. Hit it, go two rails or so and bingo! come right in on the line of the 8 ball shot. If you pick one too close to the 8, getting correct shape can be a difficult chore and, as we know, this can lead to the dreaded "one ball hell."

If you haven't been in one ball hell much before, but find yourself getting there now, that is a good thing, generally speaking, as it indicates you're making balls better. Running seven balls seems better than being able to run three or four, doesn't it? But nooooo, not in 8-ball.

This is the irony of 8-ball: become a better shooter and lose more games!...for a while, anyway. Then become a better safe player and start winning more games. But then some young hotshot smokes you and you realize that to become the best 8-baller, safeties are good but running out and leaving your opponent sitting is even better. But, man, this takes a lot of work to get past that saftey play level.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Get_A_Grip]

My biggest problem and therefore, my tip...

Being a "lazy" shooter has always spelled trouble for me--and it seems to be especially important in 8-ball, where there are a lot of additional balls to maneuver around. What I mean by lazy, is that I may not take the time to walk over to where I plan on stopping the cue ball to determine exactly how my next shot will look and what I will need to do to get shape on the next ball--and then to adjust where I need to stop the cue ball, if necessary.

Many times you will see a pro player get out of line for the exact same reason. To me it takes a lot of discipline to consistently "take the walk" over to where the cue ball will stop and take a peek at the layout. I think that the better player that you become, you get very good at judging where to leave the cue ball to get the best leave on the next ball without needing to move around the table. So you eventually get "lazy", figuring that you've done just fine without moving around the table--and then in a tough match against a strong player--you end up out of line with no way to recover.

I tend to fall into this mode more when I'm not playing a really strong player and when I'm the most relaxed...but a habit is a habit...if you don't do something consistency, you may get distracted or tense during a game with a strong player and end-up getting the exact leave that you were planning on--only to find out that you are out of line or that you should have left the cue ball in a slighly different position for the best shot at getting shape on the next ball.

I found all of the other comments on 8-ball strategy very good. My two cents focus more on the consistency in looking at the layout before shooting each shot (...assuming of course that all of the other stategy is used too!)...

 

[lewdo26]

Good points, Pete. But I'd look at the quality of the player I'm facing. I know that goes against the "play the table" philosophy, but... If I'm playing someone who'll regularly clear the table for me, and not get out (even good players with no strategy do that), I'M IN NO HURRY.

QUOTE]

I will get somewhat into this mode and for me is because I get lazy, which is not a good thing I guess.

Pete, it's not "lazy", it's the PERCENTAGES against a particular player! PERCENTAGES ARE NOT ABSOLUTES! Why in hell will I attempt to get out of a tough layout when I can cynch the win BEFORE I run out??? If the opponent is a weak kicker, or has no concept of strategy, or shotmaking, etc., why would you possibly even allow for the slightest chance of a failed runout??? That's the #1 sin in 8 ball --- and that's why many strong players don't like 8 ball, I guess. They don't want to STACK UP their percentages... if they have a 60% layout they'll go for it, despite the fact that they could have made it 95% or so against a weak player by manufacturing a break ball or keyball, etc. with a couple aggressive safeties.

Against a strong opponent, however, all bets are off because turning the table over is risky REGARDLESS of how well you think you got 'em locked up.