A friendly discussion about A-joints

[manwon]

Thank you, I have tried your method and it works well, You'll be happy to know some very good Cue makers of the past did exactly what you do. I have tried lots of things mentioned on the forum over time. Just to give me a better understanding of different techniques. There are a few like your method that have given me very positive thoughts. There are lots that make me say, Why the heck did I ever try this. But the knowledge is good to know anyway. To me, it's not just about making cues, it's the entire package, Especially learning different repair techniques. Versatility helps to complete the circle.
Always forward Craig.

Thanks Michael, I appreciate your comments very much and the truth be known I did not know that others were doing things in that manner. I remember years ago I brought this topic up on the forum and many thought I was crazy for doing things like that, I am glad to learn that others before and after me have tried what I was talking about, it kinda vindicates the results I have had to date.

I totally agree always forward, thanks again Michael.

 

[KJ Cues]

It's my considered opinion that the 'A' jnt. is the most important connection of the entire cue. That's where the magic begins. Everything that comes after, is built on the 'base' of the 'A' jnt.
Get it wrong and no matter what is done thereafter, the cue will be wrong.
It's for this reason that I don't buy pre-made blanks. If I didn't do the 'A' jnt., I won't put my name on it.

It's fairly obvious that most of us build something just a little different from the next guy and that's alright. The key, which was mentioned earlier, is the 'lock-up', for lack of a better term, but 'lock-up' pretty much describes it.
How solid & secure you can make that connection will contribute a good portion of how that cue hits. Again, get the 'A' jnt. wrong and the whole cue will be wrong.

I like some wght. in front of my grip hand so metal is used in the 'A' jnt construction. I also vary the length of the pin at the shaft/handle connection for better wght. distribution. We're fortunate to have such a diversity of metals (of different wghts.) to choose from, even G-10.
I'm also very concerned to keep the 'A' jnt. concentric. In all honesty though, it's not all that hard to do. Moving the center holes (within reason) at either end of the cue, during the true-up & tapering passes will keep the 'A' in the center. This is the same method that is used to true-up points.
If you're going to detect any movement at the 'A' jnt., it's going to be during these initial passes that it will likely show itself. If you do detect movement, you might as well stop and let the cue hang; up to a year if you've got the patience. Once tapering passes resume, if movement is again detected, you can probably stop right there and cut your loses. This cue will never be right. It's best to find this out earlier than later though. Sorry, no profit on this one.

Tenoning (sp) can be done in either direction, depending on the cue.

We all do things a little bit differently but we all wind-up at the same place. Pretty funny huh?

 

[JoeyInCali]

I'm also very concerned to keep the 'A' jnt. concentric. In all honesty though, it's not all that hard to do. Moving the center holes (within reason) at either end of the cue, during the true-up & tapering passes will keep the 'A' in the center.
ding ding ding!

 

[ratcues]

This thread is giving me exactly what I needed....perspective.

 

[RBC]

Do you you believe the length of a pin, given the same thread and material, would change the hit?

Ryan I do not think that the length of the pin will change much if anything. To my understanding when the tip hits the cue ball the vibration we call hit begins, it then moves at the speed of sound to the butt cap and then back to the cue tip, this movement is what we perceive as a cues hit. If at anytime this vibration is interrupted the vibration will be interrupted, the pitch of the vibration and the sound will be changed from bell like to a cracked or broken sound. This is why in most cases if something is loose on a cue it will sound like the difference in tone is coming from the cues tip or ferrule.

In my opinion so long as all parts of the cue are securely joined (Nothing is loose) the tone of the cues hit will not be changed by a long or short metal doweled screw at the A-joint.

JIMO[/QUOTE]

Craig,

I agree, but also disagree.

You are correct that the "sound waves" created by the hit travel up and down the cue at the speed of sound through that material.

However, I don't refer to those sound waves as what we call "hit". These sound waves are completely linear and they travel up and down the cue with no physical movement of the cue. They are also at a relatively high frequency. I don't believe that we can feel these waves, only hear them.

Also, when we hit the ball off center, the cue bends creating a physical wave or bending motion that travels down the cue. This is what we "feel", the side to side shaking of the cue in our hand. This "physical wave" is a much lower frequency than the "sound wave" and we can very easily detect it as well as small changes in the frequency or amplitude.

Obviously, most of us combine what we feel and what we hear into one thing, even though they are completely different.

 

[Russell Cues]

I think what truly matters the most is simply solid construction. You can use a different size pin or vary the tread count, but if the "a joint" is sloppy then the pin or tenon size isn't going to matter much. Whatever pin size or tenon size someone choses, if the construction is solid and the pin is on center and the joint produces the desired feel for that cue maker then mission accomplised. I think we can get lost in all the minute details, its fundamental solid construction and once you have that down then you can tweek joint types to suite your own individual taste.

If there is any "play" when assembling your "a-joint" this can affect the feel or if the tenon doesn't quite touch the bottom of the bored hole it fits into, this could affect the tonal characteristics. Besides what one customer feels is the best hitting cue ever, may be a cue someone else wouldn't own, the feel is subjective for everyone.

We all strive to be the best or atleast always improve our technique and construction methods. Perfection is always in the distance but we never stop moving toward it.

 

[SK Custom Cues]

Very interesting thread. More interesting than I've seen in some time. Royce brought up a good point. I am one of those guys who also believes in creating a solid connection wherever that may be whether it be the 'A' Joint, or 'Z' Joint. I think the more gaps you have, the less energy transfer you have, therefore resulting in unwanted result. Dampeners such as linen and leather, or even limbsavers are great but when used in the right way. I also believe, that a very minute difference is made in such a thing as bumper or no bumper, or even the style of the bumper, and also how hollow the buttsleeve is to a certain extent.

Harmonics, tonal qualities in combination with physical energy are all wonderful little properties we get to experiment with so that we can get the best hitting cue possible.

I talked about this with Brad when he came down, and then just yesterday with Duane and:

Ultimately, we assemble these atoms and molecules, but essentially, what is at the center of these molecules is sound. We are really making percussion instruments, which is the way I like to look at it.

 

[ratcues]

So, to my original question. I had two cues. I know everything is solid in my construction. Player hates one, loves the other.

-One of the cues had a cored ebony forearm w/V-cut curly maple points, maple handle, a leather wrap, and a Kamui Black-med tip.


-Cue #2 had a cored BEM forearm, no points, maple handle, linen wrap, Everest tip. (RAT-1 and RAT-6)

Is it safe to assume that the player is feeling the difference between ebony and BEM? I am fully aware of the tone difference between the two woods but is that alone enough to make him HATE one and LOVE the other?

 

[qbilder]

Ryan, the player liking one & not the other could easily be phsycological. He might like the way one looks over the other. Or it could be something as simple as he tried a couple of shots that were unsuccessful with thew first cue & immediately he decided it was the cue's fault, so he doesn't like that cue. Aside from comfort level in terms of dimensions & balance & weight, I don't think anybody can decide whether or not they like a cue until they give it a fair shot by playing with it for a while.

 

[cutter]

A joint

Try this once and you might rethink how you feel hit. Wear some head phones, turn the music up really loud, and then hit some different cues.
Ears are way more sensitive than your hand. All the previously mentioned A joint techniques help vary the tone of the cue. I think the old timers did somethings not necessarily to improve the "hit" of the cue, but to over come some of the limitations of available products to use. And in the process, actually did improve the hit, or tone of the cue. Sort of accidental genius.

 

[qbilder]

[/B]

You are correct that the "sound waves" created by the hit travel up and down the cue at the speed of sound through that material.

However, I don't refer to those sound waves as what we call "hit". These sound waves are completely linear and they travel up and down the cue with no physical movement of the cue. They are also at a relatively high frequency. I don't believe that we can feel these waves, only hear them.

Also, when we hit the ball off center, the cue bends creating a physical wave or bending motion that travels down the cue. This is what we "feel", the side to side shaking of the cue in our hand. This "physical wave" is a much lower frequency than the "sound wave" and we can very easily detect it as well as small changes in the frequency or amplitude.

Obviously, most of us combine what we feel and what we hear into one thing, even though they are completely different.

Royce, you bring up an interesting thought. The harmonics of the cue are most certainly compound, somewhere between a drum & a stringed instrument. I disagree about not feeling the linear vibrations, though. It's a distinctly different feel than the lateral vibration but it's still evident. It's certainly stronger in some cues than others, which is what I refer to as either dead or resiliant. Take two cues & hit a ball same power center ball & one cue could be very powerful while the other won't generate nearly as much speed. And it can be felt, seen, and heard. It's what a lot of people refer to when they say the cue has a "pure" hit. The linear vibrations are not what cause this, but instead are a measured result of it. It just so happens that cues with the most power, also tend to have the "purest" feel. It's the feel of the moment of impact i'm referring to, not the flexual vibrations you get nano-moments after impact.

Oddly enough, the "purest" hitting cues have the slightest feel. It's a faint tick you can feel as the tip touches the cueball, and is generally associated with a sound that matches the sensation. Cues that have a "dead" hit & require a little more umph to move the rock, tend to have more of an uncomfortable jolt at the moment of impact. This tells me that some cues absorb more energy while others are a free conductor to transfer energy more efficiently. The differences can be a number of things including wood & material quality, construction type & quality, dimensions, tip quality, etc. The "A" joint most certainly could be a determining factor here but I think it would only be such if it were faulty. Most important to the feel & playability of a cue I believe is material quality and construction soundness. Sound construction with high grade materials will give you a solid feeling & playing cue. Knowing how to choose & tune to fit what players need is what makes the difference.

I guess I go full circle to me core belief. The "A" joint type is much less critical than the purpose it serves. Once you have the "lock", there's much more to worry about. My opinion is that the cue's playability begins when you choose the materials to build it.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I think the old timers did somethings not necessarily to improve the "hit" of the cue, but to over come some of the limitations of available products to use. And in the process, actually did improve the hit, or tone of the cue. Sort of accidental genius.

The phenolic band/sleeve?

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

Moving the center holes (within reason) at either end of the cue, during the true-up & tapering passes will keep the 'A' in the center. This is the same method that is used to true-up points.

If you have to do this after you have assembled/glued at the A, you need to go back and rethink your assembly process. You're doing something against yourself.
If it's because the cue has moved after.....you may as well chuck it in the circular file. I would almost bet it'll be a banana down the road...... not talking about a couple thou movement here.

Your fore points need to be running straight and true before the the attachment. If not, you've just compounded your problems after the glue up.
Making sure all the faces of the connecting pieces are at "absolute" 90 degree angles of the center line of all the pieces you are introducing to your joint is absolute critical or you will end up with some type of side pressure created in the cue.....aka...warpage down the road.
If you're confident you've done all of this correct and you're still ending up with a banana after the glue up, chances are you are crushing one or more of the faces by over tightening during the glue up.

As mentioned previously.......the construction process is probably more important than the style of your A.

 

[LGSM3]

very nice

think Ryan started this one off right "Friendly Discussion" just realized that this is 4 pages in with no hostility yet. Hopefully i'm not jinxn it.

I'm no A joint expert but i do know that i have a major mental block when it comes to hitting with a cue with next to no sound. Maybe thats why i almost have to have a rock for a tip. I know that the crisp ping that i get from my cue inspires confidence, and if i don't have it then i cant get past the fact that i think the cue has a dead feel.

I also feel like this is going to be a major downfall to my cuemaking in relation to others preferences. If i strive to make them all hit the way i feel it should, then alot of people won't like it because they don't desire that same feel or sound. For instance, "and this is just my opinion and not to get off the subject" but i feel like some of the softer tips should not even exist, you can take a great cue and ruin/make feel dead by putting a soft tip on it.

Even then, if your ajoint is perfect or garbage, your probably not going to know the difference with a really soft tip.

anyway, just my opinions...sorry to get off the subject

 

[masonh]

If it's because the cue has moved after.....you may as well chuck it in the circular file. I would almost bet it'll be a banana down the road...... not talking about a couple thou movement here.

funny how those cues keep on moving all the way down the line.

 

[ratcues]

think Ryan started this one off right "Friendly Discussion" just realized that this is 4 pages in with no hostility yet.

I don't believe for one minute that the secrets to cue making is something concrete and tangible but I do feel there is a lot of info here as long as you can connect the dots. Cues and their construction are as unique as the individual person building them.

 

[J.T.450r]

Very interesting thread. More interesting than I've seen in some time. Royce brought up a good point. I am one of those guys who also believes in creating a solid connection wherever that may be whether it be the 'A' Joint, or 'Z' Joint. I think the more gaps you have, the less energy transfer you have, therefore resulting in unwanted result. Dampeners such as linen and leather, or even limbsavers are great but when used in the right way. I also believe, that a very minute difference is made in such a thing as bumper or no bumper, or even the style of the bumper, and also how hollow the buttsleeve is to a certain extent.

Harmonics, tonal qualities in combination with physical energy are all wonderful little properties we get to experiment with so that we can get the best hitting cue possible.

I talked about this with Brad when he came down, and then just yesterday with Duane and:

Ultimately, we assemble these atoms and molecules, but essentially, what is at the center of these molecules is sound. We are really making percussion instruments, which is the way I like to look at it.

With that being said do you think cue makers should try and stick to tonewoods like makers of violins and guitars do? found this list on wiki looks like alot of the tonewoods we use but not all and alot of woods we use wouldnt be considered tonewoods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonewood
http://www.pantheonguitars.com/tonewoods.htm

 

[Sheldon]

A cue is the sum of each little part... yes, they all add up, but the way some people single out one aspect and assign such huge importance on it, is a little silly in my opinion.

Think about this...

I don't believe it's possible to build 2 cues that hit exactly alike. Even if the wood comes from the same source, and the construction is identical.
You can get close, and many of the characteristics will match, but in my experience, every cue is different in some way. A little like people.

Given this, now try to figure out how or why one plays differently because of how long the A-joint pin is? Or how long the tenon in the A-joint is? Or if there even is a tenon?

Like someone else said, I've picked up cues that I consider JUNK, wrong joint, obviously off-center pins, cheap material, but they hit pretty good.

This is why "hit" is extremely subjective. There's no good way to definitively test it, and one person's idea of a good hit might not work for the next person.

 

[cuesmith]

A cue is the sum of each little part... yes, they all add up, but the way some people single out one aspect and assign such huge importance on it, is a little silly in my opinion.

Think about this...

I don't believe it's possible to build 2 cues that hit exactly alike. Even if the wood comes from the same source, and the construction is identical.
You can get close, and many of the characteristics will match, but in my experience, every cue is different in some way. A little like people.

Given this, now try to figure out how or why one plays differently because of how long the A-joint pin is? Or how long the tenon in the A-joint is? Or if there even is a tenon?

Like someone else said, I've picked up cues that I consider JUNK, wrong joint, obviously off-center pins, cheap material, but they hit pretty good.

This is why "hit" is extremely subjective. There's no good way to definitively test it, and one person's idea of a good hit might not work for the next person.

Well said Sheldon!

 

[Graciocues]

Every technique described works great. Solid construction is the bottom line. Which joint provides the most consistent hit with different materials?
Is anybody going to test the different pin same wood idea? I have to experiment with this idea and it would be great to have results from several builders. I will build a Bocote forearm with Maple from the A-joint back.

I've always been a firm believer of different wraps can change the feel and tone of a cue. Recently I changed a linen wrap to a leather on a cue that had more tone and feel then any cues I've played with. The cue was a Searing with no bumper and it sounded like it had a Phenolic tip. I asked the owner if the cue played different after the wrap change and he said it played exactly the same. I was surprised when he told me the cue felt no different. He's a reputable member on this site and I trust his opinion. Please chime in if your reading this.

He left me wondering if my wrap ideas were correct. The leather should of dampened the tone. ?????


Not sure if this should be a different thread.

Wraps are changed on a daily basis and it would be nice to hear a few opinions of what changes were noticed. It was mentioned a few times how wraps and or bumpers can change the tone so I'm not trying to change the thread.

I have noticed a tone difference when I remove the bumper from some of my cues. I've never changed my wrap so I have no feedback on this.