A new model for 14.1 High runs?

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
You don't BUY into the world 14.1 championship, you EARN your way in, get your name on the top 64 players list first!!
 

gerryf

Well-known member
Besides the player getting paid, who's paying all the support personnel, cameras, location, table maintenance?
Among the people I've talked to, they all think the support services (room, camera, internet link) should be the responsibility of Player X and whatever room he wants to use and the room owner. The Youtube channels and data services are available now for free. I don't think any top player would have difficulty getting people involved, and some room owners have already said they'd happily host a player.

I already have one major billiards application under development, and don't have the time to manage something like this. But I could provide web hosting, a url, and 2x2GB MSSQL database for free.

As of now, I've commitments for
$10K for Schmidt, Fisher
$5k for Filler,
$4K for Pagulayan, Morra, Chinakhov, Gorst, Hohmann.
$3K for SVB, Orcollo, Corteza, Hohmann, Appleton, Earl, Souquet, Deuel, Ouschan. Fortunski. Kazakis
$2K for Yapp, Szolnocki
 
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Shuddy

Diamond Dave’s babysitter
Silver Member
Among the people I've talked to, they all think the support services (room, camera, internet link) should be the responsibility of Player X and whatever room he wants to use and the room owner. The Youtube channels and data services are available now for free. I don't think any top player would have difficulty getting people involved, and some room owners have already said they'd happily host a player.

I already have one major billiards application under development, and don't have the time to manage something like this. But I could provide web hosting, a url, and 2x2GB MSSQL database for free.

As of now, I've commitments for
$10K for Schmidt, Fisher
$5k for Filler,
$4K for Pagulayan, Morra, Chinakhov, Gorst, Hohmann.
$3K for SVB, Orcollo, Corteza, Hohmann, Appleton, Earl, Souquet, Deuel, Ouschan. Fortunski. Kazakis
$2K for Yapp, Szolnocki

To do what? Break 714?

What kind of commitments do you have?
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here are the BCA equipment specs published in the BCA rule book. These are for 1948, 1950, and 2021/2022. The corner pocket specs were 5 inches +- 1/8 inch from 1950 through the 2017/2018 rule book (not shown). In 2021/2022 the spec was expanded to 4 1/8 to 5 1/8 as shown below. Note also the new note that appeared about 10 years ago that the BCA table specs are for recreational tables and not professional play.

BCA1948.jpg

===================================================
BCA1950.jpg

============================================================

BCA2021.jpg
 
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ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here are the BCA equipment specs published in the BCA rule book. These are for 1948, 1950, and 2021/2022. The corner pocket specs were 5 inches +- 1/8 inch from 1950 through the 2017/2018 rule book (not shown). In 2021/2022 the spec was expanded to 4 1/8 to 5 1/8 as shown below. Note also the new note that appeared about 10 years ago that the BCA table specs are for recreational tables and not professional play.

View attachment 625688
===================================================
View attachment 625689
============================================================


View attachment 625690
Bob, the BCA hasn’t even updated these specs on their current website.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The BCA rule book does not list the WPA specs or at least I could not find them. However, on the BCA website, both the BCA and the WPA specs are listed. Here is the page that links to both of them:

CropperCapture[871].png
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Bob, the BCA hasn’t even updated these specs on their current website.
That is a problem when the same number/rule/idea is listed in multiple places. One of them gets changed and the others are overlooked. You need to have one master document that is somehow propagated automatically to all the places where that document is used, but that's really hard to set up. This is a general document maintenance problem and not specific to the BCA.
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
the best way is to only have world records certified during events where people independent of the outcome are welcome there.
as that's the way almost all world records are recorded. other wise they are just Guinness book of records.
 

logical

apart of their 'semi public'
Silver Member
According to Bobby and Lou, the BCA is indeed the governing body that is solely responsible for certifying this run.
They also tried to say it wasn't about beating 626...people say things.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Among the people I've talked to, they all think the support services (room, camera, internet link) should be the responsibility of Player X and whatever room he wants to use and the room owner. The Youtube channels and data services are available now for free. I don't think any top player would have difficulty getting people involved, and some room owners have already said they'd happily host a player.

I already have one major billiards application under development, and don't have the time to manage something like this. But I could provide web hosting, a url, and 2x2GB MSSQL database for free.

As of now, I've commitments for
$10K for Schmidt, Fisher
$5k for Filler,
$4K for Pagulayan, Morra, Chinakhov, Gorst, Hohmann.
$3K for SVB, Orcollo, Corteza, Hohmann, Appleton, Earl, Souquet, Deuel, Ouschan. Fortunski. Kazakis
$2K for Yapp, Szolnocki
So are you guessing this high run competition is limited to only taking place in the United States, or is the world also invited to host the same events in their OWN countries??
 

gerryf

Well-known member
So are you guessing this high run competition is limited to only taking place in the United States, or is the world also invited to host the same events in their OWN countries??
The goal was to NOT limit it to any one country. There are top quality players in North America, Asia, the Middle East, Europe, Africa, and South America. Right now, almost none of them can participate in the Legends challenge either because they can't easily make the trip, but more likely because almost none of them are on Bobby's selected guest list.

The point was to try to
1. make the challenge open to everyone with a 9' table that meets the specs, and that are able to meet the conditions of play.
2. make the schedule with maximum flexibility as to time and place.
3. make the challenge completely transparent with room and table conditions,
4. make the challenge completely transparent with regards to prize money, and
5. make the challenge completely tranparent with full and free access to the stream and the archived runs.

Bobby's challenge doesn't meet any of those points. I think we can do better and fairer.

Some players will have 9' tables with 4.25" pockets, and that's within the specs, so if they can set a record, that's fair (and terrific!). I would expect many players would look for a table with 5 1/8" pockets to maximize their chances, just like Bobby did, and that's fair too.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
The goal was to NOT limit it to any one country. There are top quality players in North America, Asia, the Middle East, Europe, Africa, and South America. Right now, almost none of them can participate in the Legends challenge either because they can't easily make the trip, but more likely because almost none of them are on Bobby's selected guest list.

The point was to try to
1. make the challenge open to everyone with a 9' table that meets the specs, and that are able to meet the conditions of play.
2. make the schedule with maximum flexibility as to time and place.
3. make the challenge completely transparent with room and table conditions,
4. make the challenge completely transparent with regards to prize money, and
5. make the challenge completely tranparent with full and free access to the stream and the archived runs.

Bobby's challenge doesn't meet any of those points. I think we can do better and fairer.

Some players will have 9' tables with 4.25" pockets, and that's within the specs, so if they can set a record, that's fair (and terrific!). I would expect many players would look for a table with 5 1/8" pockets to maximize their chances, just like Bobby did, and that's fair too.
To be fair, the table really needs to be a production built pool table, all with the same size pockets no matter what. You can't have variables in something like this other than cloth. The players are variables enough. Rooms need to be registered, and meet the requirements, post verification of the tables, and conditions of the tables, they can even have more than one qualifying table. My personal feelings are to use the Diamond 9ft ProAms with factory pro cut pocket specs, then even the slate shelfs are uniformed between all the tables not just the pockets. I order for room owners to get involved they need to meet the streaming requirements as well, and pay a sanctioned fee per table to register them by serial number, which can be verified by Diamond. Then the players, every player must pay a registration fee of something like $25 which goes into the record fund, building with every player. Dont matter how many times a record is broken during the year, only the highest recorded score of the year gets paid out as the new record holder. If the record hasn't been broken, then the fund carries over to the following year. Competition is open to anyone who pays the registration fee. There has to be a limit on how long a person can keep trying to post a score, my thoughts are simple, the player gets 10 chances to break a 100, if the player fails to do so, they have used up their starting chances. If in that 10 attempts they do score a 10+ they get a new 10 chances. Added to their remaining chances. But, if they use up all those chances and fail to post a 200+ they're done. If they do post a 200+ they then get an additional 10 chances added to their remaining chances left. If they use up all those chan es and fail to break 300+ they're done. And so on...
nest player. The players are playing for two reason, 1) set a new high run record, and 2) put up a high run score to be in the top highest 64 scores for the year, making them eligible to compete in a world 14.1 championship at the end of the year.
 

gerryf

Well-known member
To be fair, the table really needs to be a production built pool table, all with the same size pockets no matter what. You can't have variables in something like this other than cloth. The players are variables enough. Rooms need to be registered, and meet the requirements, post verification of the tables, and conditions of the tables, they can even have more than one qualifying table. My personal feelings are to use the Diamond 9ft ProAms with factory pro cut pocket specs, then even the slate shelfs are uniformed between all the tables not just the pockets. I order for room owners to get involved they need to meet the streaming requirements as well, and pay a sanctioned fee per table to register them by serial number, which can be verified by Diamond. Then the players, every player must pay a registration fee of something like $25 which goes into the record fund, building with every player. Dont matter how many times a record is broken during the year, only the highest recorded score of the year gets paid out as the new record holder. If the record hasn't been broken, then the fund carries over to the following year. Competition is open to anyone who pays the registration fee. There has to be a limit on how long a person can keep trying to post a score, my thoughts are simple, the player gets 10 chances to break a 100, if the player fails to do so, they have used up their starting chances. If in that 10 attempts they do score a 10+ they get a new 10 chances. Added to their remaining chances. But, if they use up all those chances and fail to post a 200+ they're done. If they do post a 200+ they then get an additional 10 chances added to their remaining chances left. If they use up all those chan es and fail to break 300+ they're done. And so on...
nest player. The players are playing for two reason, 1) set a new high run record, and 2) put up a high run score to be in the top highest 64 scores for the year, making them eligible to compete in a world 14.1 championship at the end of the year.
Interesting ideas!

I like the idea of registering rooms and players, and will talk to others about that and what problems there might be.

You're right that we can tell from the statistics we already have who's likely to succeed, so an 'entrance' test might be workable for non-established 14.1 players.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Interesting ideas!

I like the idea of registering rooms and players, and will talk to others about that and what problems there might be.

You're right that we can tell from the statistics we already have who's likely to succeed, so an 'entrance' test might be workable for non-established 14.1 players.
That is exactly how to popularize 14.1 around the world, get the players and room owners involved. Every room around the world can host their own in house 14.1 events, on a regular basis.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
With just a 1,000 players in an entire year attempting their own personal high runs, going on a international high run list, worldwide, because if you keep records on every players highest run recorded, that also provide the heartbeat so to speak where everyone in the world fits in that list, even if its just in their pool table at home, they'll have an idea where they stand internationally. But just those 1K players would be putting $25k in the high run prize fund, or "8B break pot"
 

Badpenguin

Member
The point was to try to
1. make the challenge open to everyone with a 9' table that meets the specs, and that are able to meet the conditions of play.
2. make the schedule with maximum flexibility as to time and place.
3. make the challenge completely transparent with room and table conditions,
4. make the challenge completely transparent with regards to prize money, and
5. make the challenge completely tranparent with full and free access to the stream and the archived runs.
All of that sounds great. But the only real requirement, and determiner of who would get the prize fund paid, would ultimately be the BCA's certification.
 

gerryf

Well-known member
All of that sounds great. But the only real requirement, and determiner of who would get the prize fund paid, would ultimately be the BCA's certification.
I think that's fair though. Someone has to review the evidence and say Yes or No, and as long as the BCA will continue to sanction this record, they seem a likely choice.

If the video is good enough, it can stand on it's own.
 

sammylane12

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Learning from mistakes made in the past, prevent repeating the same mistakes in the future. I guarantee you, the 714 record can be broken on today's equipment, for example, Diamond 9ft ProAm with ProCut 4 1/2" and 5" pockets, GUARANTEED! The equipment, the balls, AND the PLAYERS today have everything it takes to do so.

When players have ALREADY demonstrated 200 & 300+ runs on that exact same table, the pockets being to tight is just a bullshit excuse. Put up a reward worth while, and that 714 will fall this year, on one of the 1,000's of 9ft Diamond ProAms around the world!!!!
Does anyone know the high run on a stock Diamond Table?
 

jeagle64

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The latest high-run challenge exposed a slew of problems and controversies, simply because of the way it was set up.

The difference in the standard of play between Ruslan and the rotation players was so stark, that it makes me wish there were more 14.1 players involved.

Would it be workable to have 14.1 High Run Challenges operate under a different model?

1. Prize money
Either​
a. a straight cash commitment in a GoFundMe or other fundraising site. or​
b. a pledge of so many cents/ball for the record run.​
If there were say, 1000 people who would pledge say, $0.05/ball for Player X to attempt a new high run record that works out to $50/ball, and for an 800 ball run, that means the prize money is about $40K​
  • Whichever way it's funded, the pot could accumulate until it was worth Player X's time to make the attempt. There would have to be some kind of expiry date on the offer, maybe six months??
  • Pledge's of more than $50 (say) would receive a download link to the record breaking video, and the video would have commentary and analysis by either the player or another 14.1. expert to provide added value.
  • All pledge's could receive a signed certificate, and a signed image of Player X standing on the pool table with his arms raised in celebration
  • Gofundme charges 2.9% + $0.30 per donation, so an $50 pledge means $1.45 in processing costs
2. Conditions could include.
  • The high run attempts are live streamed on Youtube, and archived on Youtube for all to see. The video provided to $50 pledgers is value-added with commentary and analysis.
  • the table must be 9'x4.5' and meet the BCA specs for high runs. (as described by Shuddy in another thread) https://cdn.ymaws.com/bca-pool.com/resource/resmgr/imported/BCAEquipmentSpecifications_2008.pdf (Not sure about some of these specs ??)
  • before the high run, the camera is walked around to show the table from all sides, and show the pockets with two balls inside, and rulers or tape measure showing the pocket dimensions (width, throat, shelf).
  • a dedicated score keeper, and a dedicated racker.
  • a template rack as used by the Legends group.
  • Either the Youtube Home page keeps a current list all the runs for the current stream, or better yet, a detailed summary of each run in a downloadable document (Google docs).
3. Logistically, maybe the simplest approach is to just have the prize money open to anyone (except the current record holder), but there might be 'shenanigans'. Otherwise, targeting the prize money for certain top players and reputable clubs around the world would help ensure everything was on the up and up.

This model would make it easy for European, Asian, African players to compete.

This is also really transparent.

I would happily support such an attempt for certain players.

In the hours since I proposed this, I've heard from players and there's about $3000 available from a group of players for Schmidt, SVB, Orcollo, Ruslan, Fedor, and Hohmann, and about $5000 for Filler.

Now just need to find someone to manage it.

I like the pledge idea. Make it a fundraiser for each players charity of choice. They could split their pledges with a charity. The pros sponsors could pledge money per ball/rack. Maybe a table or cue maker could sponsor the purse for the high run.


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