a reason for miscue/mis-aim- ?

E

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I almost only ever miscue whilst drawing the rock, trying to identify the reason(s?) why using video
one thing I notice upon video review is that I'm gripping my cue tight upon impact with the cue ball
I'm guessing this is less than ideal, since the rest of the time I utilize a pretty loose grip- ?
and if the tight grip is no bueno, I wonder why? cos I'm missing my aiming point?
 
I don't know if it's the best solution, but I grip the cue tighter the whole time. It's hard for me to put that much power into my cue without involuntarily tightening my grip, raising the butt and lowering the tip. Another issue is that when adding more power, we may engage other muscle groups, perhaps tightening up the shoulder muscles, slightly shifting the arm. Corey Deuel has a drill that emphasizes getting the most backspin with the least power.

 
tomatoshooter said:
I don't know if it's the best solution, but I grip the cue tighter the whole time. It's hard for me to put that much power into my cue without involuntarily tightening my grip, raising the butt and lowering the tip. Another issue is that when adding more power, we may engage other muscle groups, perhaps tightening up the shoulder muscles, slightly shifting the arm. Corey Deuel has a drill that emphasizes getting the most backspin with the least power.

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Too bad he offers no hints about how to achieve an accurate-enough stroke (except practice-practice-practice).

pj
chgo
 
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The problem with using a tight grip only on occassion, like on certain shots, is that you end up using muscles that aren't normally used on most of your shots. That brings inconsistent muscle tension into the stroke, and that tention on the butt end of the cue can really cause the tip end to move off line.

You either have to do it a few hundred times until you've trained your mind and muscle memory to perform with that extra grip, or just quit doing it period. It's all about repetition. If you don't do something enough, then you never repeat it enough to become consistent with it.
 
FranCrimi said:
Do you miscue every time you try to draw the cb? If not, then what type of draw shot?
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hi fran, I sometimes miscue when I try to hit it hard
here's a video I recorded recently where I tried to see if there was a difference open vs. closed bridge
...you will see/hear a miscue ^_^

appreciate any feedback, thanks all for the replies
 
evergruven said:
appreciate any feedback, thanks all for the replies
Click to expand...
The thing I notice immediately is how your grip changes during the shot. You take your practice strokes with the cue held near your fingertips, but finish the shot stroke with the cue clenched all the way up to your palm. That has to affect tip placement.

pj
chgo
 
Thanks for posting the video. Well, you did grab the cue at the end of every shot, so I'm not in a hurry to blame that for the miscue. Maybe it was a simple matter of your aiming too low on that last shot. After 4 successful shots, why not try a little lower? Could it be, that's what you were thinking? Or maybe you were a little too casual in your aim because things were going well? It happens all the time to players. They ease up when things are going well.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The thing I notice immediately is how your grip changes during the shot. You take your practice strokes with the cue held near your fingertips, but finish the shot stroke with the cue clenched all the way up to your palm. That has to affect tip placement.

pj
chgo
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That's one of the things I was doing. Demetrius Tinman Jelatus talks about the death spiral on draw shots. Your tip placement is inaccurate so you can't get as low on the ball, so you have to amp up the power, so your tip placement is more inaccurate..... You mentioned about Corey's drill not really giving specifics regarding technique. In one of Tinman's videos he discusses how the body figures it out. He compares it to a child learning to walk. You accept that he will learn from the good and bad results and you don't have to micromanage the bend of the knee, the swing of the arms, etc.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The thing I notice immediately is how your grip changes during the shot. You take your practice strokes with the cue held near your fingertips, but finish the shot stroke with the cue clenched all the way up to your palm. That has to affect tip placement.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

totally pat, that's what I meant in my og post
why does the tip dip when gripping the cue tight, I wonder?
can't quite visualize it..thanks for the reply

FranCrimi said:
Thanks for posting the video. Well, you did grab the cue at the end of every shot, so I'm not in a hurry to blame that for the miscue. Maybe it was a simple matter of your aiming too low on that last shot. After 4 successful shots, why not try a little lower? Could it be, that's what you were thinking? Or maybe you were a little too casual in your aim because things were going well? It happens all the time to players. They ease up when things are going well.
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thanks fran, I don't really like gripping the cue tight..my choking up at the end of the stroke is involuntary and I only noticed it after watching the vid
but you're right, I don't know if that's causing my miscues or not. I have noticed that when I pause longer on the backstroke, I draw better
messing around with that, and also looking at the object ball last. I'm slowly but surely incorporating more of that into my game, too
 
tomatoshooter said:
In one of Tinman's videos he discusses how the body figures it out. He compares it to a child learning to walk. You accept that he will learn from the good and bad results and you don't have to micromanage the bend of the knee, the swing of the arms, etc.
Click to expand...

I'm fascinated by this. I've often thought as much, and how well (or not) this jibes with proper pool form, mechanics and technique
thanks for the replies, ts
 
evergruven said:
why does the tip dip when gripping the cue tight, I wonder?
can't quite visualize it..thanks for the reply
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Because the cue is like a seesaw on your bridge - raise one end and the other end goes down. As your fingers curl upward to grip the cue, the grip end moves higher, so the tip moves lower - something like 1/4 inch lower for each 1 inch the grip end moves upward. That's a significant change from the practice strokes, and, I imagine, hard to be consistent with.

As I said above, my fix for the same problem is to close (not actually tighten) my grip, holding the cue against my palm for all strokes. That way even if I reflexively tighten a little for harder shots the change is small enough to not matter.

pj
chgo
 
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evergruven said:
hi fran, I sometimes miscue when I try to hit it hard
here's a video I recorded recently where I tried to see if there was a difference open vs. closed bridge
...you will see/hear a miscue ^_^

appreciate any feedback, thanks all for the replies
Click to expand...
Not an instructor but it looks like you're turning your wrist clockwise on the final stroke. Might not be turning it exactly, but the hard grip appears to be not in line with how you're trying to stroke.

EDIT: I used to do this, but I rarely ever do this anymore since I let the ring finger take the lead in my stroke/grip. If it happens now, it's usually due to clenched muscles from stiffness due to back being screwed up. You can draw a full table length with a loose grip. I find it much easier to draw with a loose grip because you actually follow through and the tip stays in the vector you're trying to send it in.
 
Ye that big a transition from grip at address to contact brings with it a lot of opportunity for error as you won't always close the hand the same way. You tighten up on all the shots but not in the same way. I replayed in slow mo the miscue vs the successful shots and when you tighten on the miscue, the tightening brings the butt end up noticeably, which obv sends the tip swiping down. On the successful shots, even though you also tighten, the cue remains much closer to the level it was on. Also, and this could be due to camera/sweatshirt distortions, the miscue seemed to go into your body more which would put unintended right spin on the ball. This could easily be the culprit, because as the hand goes in, the tip goes right, so instead of hitting really low at 6 o'clock, you move over to 5 o'clock but at max 6 o'clock depth resulting in miscue.

The cue ball will give away if it was a str8 line miscue or if u went in with the hand and right with the tip as the ball will def deflect left badly with the latter. too bad vid didn't show it, but that is some feedback to look out for on any future miscues.
 
Bob Jewett said:
That's especially true if there is daylight between the grip hand and the cue stick. The hand should contact the stick all the way around throughout the stroke.
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While I agree that this is ideal, plenty of great players play with daylight. Some coaches even teach a light grip by placing a cube of chalk or two between the cue and hand. The gap remains once the chalk is gone, though smaller.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Because the cue is like a seesaw on your bridge - raise one end and the other end goes down. As your fingers curl upward to grip the cue, the grip end moves higher, so the tip moves lower - something like 1/4 inch lower for each 1 inch the grip end moves upward. That's a significant change from the practice strokes, and, I imagine, hard to be consistent with.
Click to expand...
boogieman said:
Not an instructor but it looks like you're turning your wrist clockwise on the final stroke. Might not be turning it exactly, but the hard grip appears to be not in line with how you're trying to stroke.
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boogieman said:
You can draw a full table length with a loose grip. I find it much easier to draw with a loose grip because you actually follow through and the tip stays in the vector you're trying to send it in.
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gracias weones..I'm not a fan of the end of stroke grip-clutching and want to cut that out
and thanks boogie, wobbly for reading my mind by confirming the value of a looser grip in and of itself
 
evergruven said:
gracias weones..I'm not a fan of the end of stroke grip-clutching and want to cut that out
and thanks boogie, wobbly for reading my mind by confirming the value of a looser grip in and of itself
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Hey man, there is nothing wrong with a tight grip and there are ways to make it work....starting out loose and in a different part of the hand than where you finish just isn't one of them :p. If you are going to play around with grips (something I suggest everyone do early on and then just to play around as an exercise once in a blue moon even when experienced) check out my TLDR post in the Thumb Straight Down thread either here in instructors or main forum. There I go into different grips and why they work (stabilizers used). Play around. Hopefully one clicks for you. But FWIW, Bob's advice on contact around the cue throughout is a solid starting point for many successful grips, esp those that close tight bc the cue is already in contact with the hand and the other fingers meet it there rather than the fingers lifting the cue into that position like you were doing in the vid.
Good Luck
 
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