Agent of Change-Hard Core Gambling vs. Professional Play

JAM

JAM

I am the storm
Silver Member
Agent of Change-Hard Core Gambling v. Professional Play

After reading quite a few good posts on this forum, there is most definitely a plethora of knowledge right here on good old AzBilliards Discussion Forum! :)

There seems to be a split between professional competition and gambling relating to the game. With the recent popularity in TV poker, gambling isn't such a bad thing after all, some might think. However, there are many who think this has hurt pool's image and that high-level professional play is the way to go for better things to come up ahead.

If the Derby is any example, action is very popular among those within pool's culture. The Mosconi Cup, an example of high-level professional play, was thrilling and exciting, on the other hand. Two great platforms for pool at its finest, but at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

I sense pool is on the brink of better things to come, but what form it will take is anybody's guess. I like the idea of competition of high-caliber players in the pit, but I also enjoy the gambling part of pool. Is clinical professional play the way to go? Should gambling be kept in the closet as one of pool's little dirty secrets?

Hard-core gambling or professional play, which would attract mainstream America to the sport?

JAM
 
Last edited:
JAM said:
After reading quite a few good posts on this forum, there is most definitely a plethora of knowledge right here on good old AzBilliards Discussion Forum! :)

There seems to be a split between professional competition and gambling relating to the game. With the recent popularity in TV poker, gambling isn't such a bad thing after all, some might think. However, there are many who think this has hurt pool's image and that high-level professional play is the way to go for better things to come up ahead.

If the Derby is any example, action is very popular among those within pool's culture. The Mosconi Cup, an example of high-level professional play, was thrilling and exciting, on the other hand. Two great platforms for pool at its finest, but at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

I sense pool is on the brink of better things to come, but what form it will take is anybody's guess. I like the idea of competition of high-caliber players in the pit, but I also enjoy the gambling part of pool. Is clinical professional play the way to go? Should gambling be kept in the closet as one of pool's little dirty secrets?

Hard-core gambling or professional play, which would attract mainstream America to the sport?

JAM
Click to expand...


I think both. There's already a good number of tournaments on TV as evidenced by what ESPN2 carried this week alone. Did it up the ratings? I don't know. I think more needs to be done along the lines of the skins game as well as a format with some back room woofing and actual money matches with cash changing hands for everyone to see. Let 'em take a peek at what really goes on behind the scenes and I think you'd see a real spike in the ratings. Think about it...what turns you on the most in real life...watching a tournament or hearing and watching the real action with all of the personalities and characters in the world of pool?
 
I think tournaments like the skins games are a good example of that happy medium -- more excitement than just a 9-ball tournament, but still a televised professional matchup. I didn't particularly like the format (skins were mostly luck in winning 2 games in a row on opponents break, and that's where virtually all the money came from [winning the last skin]). It works well in golf but not so well with 9-ball because of the huge break advantage.

What would be really nice is live televised pool, regionally televised satellite tournaments, and sports center coverage. A single organization running the show (like the women) and more sponsorship dollars would be huge. There just isn't enough money in the game the way it is.
 
I've never gambled at pool before because I was not a good enough player and I knew just how good other players could "suddenly become" when playing for cash.

Realistically it would not have been profitable for me to play pool for money. Also I did not understand the "rules" or jargon.

Now things have changed. I am a serious player and a better player. And I have learned that playing for money can be a very good, yet inexpensive lesson.

My first experience was eye-opening! I was playing a friend for $1 a game. Boy did I ever play defensive shots like I have never played before! Amazing how many times I left him without a shot. I really wanted to win his entire $12 he had to his name and did just that! (I let him win it back since he's my best friend.)

So I'm playing for $12 basically, but playing better than ever. I play small local money tournaments where I could win $30 or $50, but don't take the games as seriously as I did the $1 a game playing! I find this interesting.

Anyway I want to play others for money because I think it will be a good way to improve my game, even though I will probably lose money. (I'll keep the amounts small.) My intentions in doing this will be to improve my playing for tournaments.

Before gambling at pool, I wanted to know the rules, handicaps, and jargon. It was not easy finding this information to say the least. Seems to be "secret" or not talked about.

So, sure the masses would be drawn to playing pool for money, but they must be educated first.

I would suggest informative pages on web sites on pool gambling, a book on the subject, and perhaps a movie.

They should educate the masses on the following...

-Definitions of pool terms/jargon. (Action, Action Room, Around the world, Backer, Bad hit, Bank the eight/nine, Barrels, Betting, Breaks, Buck, etc.) Good sources: Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards,
http://www.sfbilliards.com/jargon.html

-Handicaps explained. (Like: "The call 7, wild 8 and the breaks and two games on the wire in a race to 7.")

-Negotiating explained. (Things to say in an attempt to get a better spot. What to give, what to get.)

-Examples of negotiations for games with explanations of what is being said. (Like: Fred: "I need at least the 6 and the breaks." Sam: "No way, I have not played for weeks!")

Etc.
 
I've really gotten sick and tired of listening to the people who "don't play for money". Firstly, they'll certainly play for money when they're robbing, I can assure you. Secondly, although this atmosphere may be good for pool's image, IT SURE IS BORING!

I feel like a declawed and caged tiger whenever I walk into these upscale rooms nowadays. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to have a cup of coffee, talk to friends and shoot some nine-ball BUT I WOULD KILL FOR A MONEY GAME WITH SOME SIDE-ACTION ONCE IN A WHILE!

You know what? The worst thing is, all of these anti-gamblers had it all wrong. The public is fascinated with gambling. So much so, they're watching poker on television BY THE MILLIONS! Poker books have replaced Pool Books IN EVERY BARNES & NOBLE. In fact, there's a complete gambling section where pool used to be. Oh and the worst part, with the exception of a few (and I really do mean a few), NOBODY is making money at this game through "professional" means.


Clean this game up. Yeah, we cleaned this game up so much, we accidentally swept the table right out of the room!



Jude M. Rosenstock
 
The other night after the conclusion of a local tournament in my neck of the woods, Keith and the Genie Man ventured out to seek a little action. The night was young, and there's a young shortstop who is known to enjoy one-pocket games of stake nearby. So off we all went in pursuit of action.

When Keith and Ryan arrived, they went right for the kid, and he was all for it. His face lit right up, and his nostrils were wide open. Then the negotiating began, a little barking back and forth to get the game right, and the whole pool room's attention was on these three guys. Everybody listened intently to each player say his piece, and the colloquy was comical, to say the least. The end result was a captains one-pocket game, spotting the kid 11 to 7, for a couple of big jellybeans per game. ;)

Everybody jockeyed around the room looking for a chair to sit back and enjoy the show. The match went back and forth, and the kid was up two games for the majority of the night, as Earthquake and Genie Man struggled to keep up with him. He was the pool room's hometown favorite and had quite a few fans rooting him in. One time Keith missed a shot and his partner Ryan would grumble at him, to which he responded, "Well, you're not exactly lighting up the board, Pal." At 4:00 a.m. in the morning, after about 5 or 6 hours of play, they broke even and decided to call it a night. When the game concluded, everybody in the room left to go home. The show was over.

Whatever you want to call it, it's that kind of excitement that is entertaining. If I had a camera recording this match, it would have made for some great entertainment. Seeing the players' personalities surface is what made it enjoyable. The young kid was having a ball. It was hard-core gambling, and it sure was a lot of fun. If it could be captured on TV, I think it would be a successful. Maybe I should trade in my digital camera and get a video recorder! :p

JAM
 
JAM said:
The other night after the conclusion of a local tournament in my neck of the woods, Keith and the Genie Man ventured out to seek a little action. The night was young, and there's a young shortstop who is known to enjoy one-pocket games of stake nearby. So off we all went in pursuit of action.

When Keith and Ryan arrived, they went right for the kid, and he was all for it. His face lit right up, and his nostrils were wide open. Then the negotiating began, a little barking back and forth to get the game right, and the whole pool room's attention was on these three guys. Everybody listened intently to each player say his piece, and the colloquy was comical, to say the least. The end result was a captains one-pocket game, spotting the kid 11 to 7, for a couple of big jellybeans per game. ;)

Everybody jockeyed around the room looking for a chair to sit back and enjoy the show. The match went back and forth, and the kid was up two games for the majority of the night, as Earthquake and Genie Man struggled to keep up with him. He was the pool room's hometown favorite and had quite a few fans rooting him in. One time Keith missed a shot and his partner Ryan would grumble at him, to which he responded, "Well, you're not exactly lighting up the board, Pal." At 4:00 a.m. in the morning, after about 5 or 6 hours of play, they broke even and decided to call it a night. When the game concluded, everybody in the room left to go home. The show was over.

Whatever you want to call it, it's that kind of excitement that is entertaining. If I had a camera recording this match, it would have made for some great entertainment. Seeing the players' personalities surface is what made it enjoyable. The young kid was having a ball. It was hard-core gambling, and it sure was a lot of fun. If it could be captured on TV, I think it would be a successful. Maybe I should trade in my digital camera and get a video recorder! :p

JAM
Click to expand...


This is exactly what I'm talking about and what the real world of pool is about. It's also great entertainment for those on the sidelines both in the woofing and the game, or any adjustments during the game itself. And until somebody has been in the pits themselves woofing and negotiating for an edge or at least some kind of doable game to get the ball rolling playing for stakes that get the adrenaline flowing, they've missed out on a great aspect of the game. There's nothing to get the blood flowing better than that. (In sport that is...)

In this day and age with poker everywhere on TV and even the Travel Channel always doing a program regarding gambling in Vegas, it has a certain appeal to a large audience. And as far as language and profanity goes, how much worse does it get than the moron Ozzy Ozbourne and his whacky family saying something every second. Look at THOSE ratings! You either "bleep" the profanity or carry it on a station where it's acceptable. Nobody objects to the shows "Deadwood" or "Sopranos" with all of the cussing. If you don't like it... don't watch or put parental controls on the TV if you don't want the kids to watch. I'd love to see it...
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
You know what? The worst thing is, all of these anti-gamblers had it all wrong. The public is fascinated with gambling. So much so, they're watching poker on television BY THE MILLIONS!
Clean this game up. Yeah, we cleaned this game up so much, we accidentally swept the table right out of the room!
Click to expand...

I do not know that much about the Texas Hold'em WSOP on TV, but I do not believe you can really call that gambling. Someone correct me if I'm wrong (and I very well might be), but don't the players pay an entry fee into the tournament and then get an allocation of chips to play with? They are not pushing in $200,000 of their own money when they go "all in". It is tournament play, just like the pool we see on television. Maybe they should give the pro pool players "pool cash" , the equialent of using poker chips in a Hold'em tournament, and let them bet it on the match. Then the announcers can declare "they are playing this game for $750,000"! Maybe that would garner more of the same "gambling" facination as Texas Hold'em does.
 
I think Jude hit the nail on the head. I try to make it to every tournament I can, not because of the tournament itself, even though I do play and try to win, but because of the action after the tournament. I like playing tournaments but love the action. Poker tournaments are more similar to gambling than pool tournaments and that is why people are drawn to it. 36,000,000 people go to Las Vegas every year and gamble billions of dollars because it is exciting. Las Vegas is known as "sin city", because it is supposedly the underbelly of american society but this does not prevent the casinos from making billions of dollars from gambling. The action (gambling) side of the game is what will draw the crowds (and the money). In pool today the biggest and best tournament of the year is the Derby City Classic, why, because of all the action. They get the best turnout of players every year because of the action. The DCC has the best backroom action of the year and that is what people want to see.

People want to hide the gambling side of pool, why, this is what people want to see. If you take the action out of pool then you are removing the excitment as well. The action is what draws people into the game, the chance of a big score. If ESPN showed the so-called underbelly of the game we all love then I believe the viewing public would become more excited about the game. The ratings would go up, in turn we would get more sponsors and that means more money.

If you take away the action then you will kill the game we love, the action is what makes peoples adrenalin flow not the sound of a ball falling in a pocket.
If we started showing the gambling side of pool it will bring out the critics but don't forget you will never please everyone. By killing the action in the game you are watering it down to satisfy people who aren't in the fan base anyway.
We need to show the so-called underbelly of the game, embrace it, cause that is what this game needs.

P.S. Please don't bash me too much this is my first post.

Trizzat
 
These tournaments that you see have as much as a $10,000 entry fee. Call it what you will. However, the more I think of it, the more I'd like to see something like Horse Racing. I mean, wouldn't it be awesome if you could go online and place a bet on Efren to win, place or show?

With all due respect, I only watch one horse race a year along with about 14 zillion other people and I haven't been on a horse in 25 years (and plan to go the next 25 just as cold). If you could place bets on the competitors, pool would be live on ESPN.


Jude M. Rosenstock
 
whitewolf said:
What poker has that pool doesn't have nor will ever have is this: in America's eyes, anyone off the streets (and yes, it has happened many many times) can enter one of these poker tournaments and come out shining like a rose with pockets full of money. A friend of mine who plays internet poker in the $20 range said that one of their players went on to win their internet tournament got a free seat in the world series of poker and finished 13th or some *hit like that!!!!!!!!

THIS IS WHY PEOPLE ARE FASINATED WITH POKER. They can daydream and visualize themselves with some sort of realism (which is what makes it attractive as hell) as doing well in this tournament. They watch the best players and see if they can get a 'read' on them etc. THEY GET REALLY INVOLVED IN EVERY HAND. They CANNOT do this in pool.

Pocket Billiards, on the other hand, requires athletic skill and the likes. No Americans can empathize with pool players like they can with poker players.

If you look at what makes sports succeed on TV (except horseracing), gambling doesn't have a *ucking thing to do with it. It is nationalism (like the Mosconi Cup), or in football it is locality vs locality. Same in basketball, baseball. The ironic thing about this is than skins (gambling) is the only thing that may save billiards on TV if the guy from England doesn't succeed in promoting the Mosconic Cup over here in the United States. Pocket Billiards may become televised for the same reason that horse racing is. Syndicated gambling (do I have this correct?) With a little Jerry Springer thrown in to a skins tournament we may be able to capture many Americans. However, ESPN would never let this fly.

Just crying with everyone else about pool's fate.

Whitewolf.
Click to expand...


Actually, I think horse-racing is a very interesting sport to look at because there is no regional-affiliation whatsoever. In fact, most people carry no personal feelings toward any of the owners, horses or jockeys. It's all about the money and which one is gonna pay. Trust me, if pool could have five years of organized betting at pro events, the popularity would take off.

Poker's popularity is unique primarily because (borrowing from Steve Lipsky's points from past) it's online and the luck factor is huge. BUT that doesn't mean we can't learn from poker. It's obvious to me that the country is fascinated with Hold 'em BECAUSE they think they're gambling.


Jude M. Rosenstock
 
trizzat said:
I think Jude hit the nail on the head...P.S. Please don't bash me too much this is my first post.
Click to expand...

Trizzat, a mighty warm welcome to you! :)

If one could capture the excitement of the gambling side of pool and put it on a platform suitable for TV, it would be the launching pad for better things to come down the road.

Poker may be inviting to the Average Joe layperson, but there's nothing better than seeing two combatants on a field of green, woofing included, to get the adrenalin rising and the entertainment going in full swing. How many times have we all been in the pool room and the hours go by like minutes!?

I happen to like seeing the eye contact between the players and sometimes the spectators. It is as if they speak with their eyes in some sort of unspoken language.

Hope you enjoy the forum, Trizzat, and again, welcome aboard!

JAM
 
;)
JAM said:
Trizzat, a mighty warm welcome to you! :)

If one could capture the excitement of the gambling side of pool and put it on a platform suitable for TV, it would be the launching pad for better things to come down the road.

Poker may be inviting to the Average Joe layperson, but there's nothing better than seeing two combatants on a field of green, woofing included, to get the adrenalin rising and the entertainment going in full swing. How many times have we all been in the pool room and the hours go by like minutes!?

I happen to like seeing the eye contact between the players and sometimes the spectators. It is as if they speak with their eyes in some sort of unspoken language.

Hope you enjoy the forum, Trizzat, and again, welcome aboard!

JAM
Click to expand...

:( :rolleyes: ;) :confused: :confused: :D :mad:
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
... Trust me, if pool could have five years of organized betting at pro events, the popularity would take off.
Jude M. Rosenstock
Click to expand...

Yeah, maybe, if the dumping could be controlled or at least if the players could become better actors.
 
JAM said:
Whatever you want to call it, it's that kind of excitement that is entertaining. If I had a camera recording this match, it would have made for some great entertainment. Seeing the players' personalities surface is what made it enjoyable. The young kid was having a ball. It was hard-core gambling, and it sure was a lot of fun. If it could be captured on TV, I think it would be a successful. Maybe I should trade in my digital camera and get a video recorder! :p

JAM
Click to expand...
This is definitely the side that the general public needs to see for pool to hit the big time on tv. Without gambling, what would us lesser players do? Sure, we could practice 20 hours a day for years and then try to hit the tournament trail and try to grind out a living but where would the money come from? I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, nor do I have the talent it takes to become the best. But, I know I can make a living playing pool for money because I play good enough to win and I match up pretty well. I've booked plenty of losers at times when I tried to outrun the "NUTS", but that's what we have to do sometimes if the payoff is worth it. The skins game is what pool needs, let the spectators hear what the players are saying, show them what each game is worth, and make the payoff worth it, like the $42,500 that Niels won. Gabe Owen played lights out at the U.S. Open for $30,000, which is a nice payday, don't get me wrong, but for the spectators watching on tv there was nothing dramatic to get them on the edge of their seats. Plus, ya got a guy standing behind the camera telling everyone when to clap and cheer. That's boring, IMO, and I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way. I don't have the answers, just a common opinion about what pool is lacking, EXCITEMENT. Show the audience what they yearn to see, not just a winner and a loser. (Oh, and come on down to Kingman so I can get some action, I'll play anyone that shows up, I promise.) Peace.
 
catscradle said:
Yeah, maybe, if the dumping could be controlled or at least if the players could become better actors.
Click to expand...

That could be a problem with the viewers being able to wager on the matches, you would have to fine players caught dumping and/or suspensions. I believe that just the action between the players alone would excite the viewers enough to see a rise in the ratings.

Trizzat
 
I love to watch money games! There's nothing like sweating good action!! However, that being said, the gambling element does hurt this game when it comes to tournament play. Are the players legitimately trying to win the game or the money? Is the match legitimate? I think this is what prevents pool from being a high-paid sport. If there could be some way to separate gambling from tournament play, I think this would benefit the sport a lot.

I agree with those that say there is a good chance that the gambling element of pool could be televised successfully. I'd also like to see the tournament side of pool become much more successful than it currently is.

I agree with Jude, there doesn't seem to be any action around anymore. We used to get players coming in from the road once a month or so and now we almost never see a road player coming through. The locals seldom match up either. I have to admit to being one of those that doesn't gamble much myself because I've been raising a family for the last 25 years. One of these days I'd kind of like to give it try though. Maybe I could talk Keith into giving me the rainbow crush with all the breaks for $5 a game? LOL!! I'm really breaking out there huh?
 
Worminator said:
I do not know that much about the Texas Hold'em WSOP on TV, but I do not believe you can really call that gambling. Someone correct me if I'm wrong (and I very well might be), but don't the players pay an entry fee into the tournament and then get an allocation of chips to play with? They are not pushing in $200,000 of their own money when they go "all in". It is tournament play, just like the pool we see on television. Maybe they should give the pro pool players "pool cash" , the equialent of using poker chips in a Hold'em tournament, and let them bet it on the match. Then the announcers can declare "they are playing this game for $750,000"! Maybe that would garner more of the same "gambling" facination as Texas Hold'em does.
Click to expand...

You're right, it isn't gambling. You pay an entry fee and then you're there 'til you win it all or you're busted. You can't say "I'm up a tidy $100 thou, I then I'll call it a day." The thing is though it looks like gambling and pool tournaments don't. That's what the skins game brings, the appearance of gambling.
Personally, I have no fascination with gambling whatsoever. It neither enhances nor decrease my enjoyment of a match. However, I think the people here who stated a gambling appearance may help pool may just be right. Some people find gambling boring (yours truly), but more people I think enjoy it. So I guess it is worth a try.
Give the suckers what the want as they say.
 
I LOVE the gambling side of the sport.
If they put some of these guys in a room, let em woof at each other, match up at whatever they wanted to, and go at it, we'd have a hell of a tv program.

by the way, JAM, I LOVE the word plethora
It's a completely underused term
:D
 
I've always thought that showing the gambling side of pool could help. It's exciting. Poker is about the most boring thing you could possibly watch on TV, but yet, it's one of the hottest things out there right now among couch potatoes. If they were playing in a poker tournament with no sense of how much they were up, or down, at any given moment, and the ultimate payout were $20,000, I really doubt that anyone would watch it - and that is where pool is. The Hustler and The Color of Money were both popular movies with the non-pool-playing public, and they both glorified the gambling side of pool. When the general public thinks of pool, they have an image of hustlers and gambling in their heads. I don't think that sticking players in tuxedos and declaring that they don't gamble is going to change that image - especially when the general public isn't even seeing those efforts (the tuxedos aren't a part of pool anymore, but I think anyone reading this will get what I'm saying). Not only is the image of hustling and gambling what the general public has when they think of pool, I think that is the image they *want* to have because it makes it exciting for them. Every time I tell someone at work, or someone else that isn't a pool player, that I play pool, the first question is almost always the same - "have you ever hustled anyone"? They want to hear gambling stories. If I tell them a couple gambling stories, they will listen contently as long as I'm talking. However, if I start talking about tournament play they are immediately uninterested in the subject - and if they aren't immediately uninterested, they will usually ask about the prize funds and, once I tell them the numbers, then they become ininterested. I've even purposely told different non-players, when the subject of pool came up, different stories (gambling vs. non-gambling) just to see what their reactions would be and, almost without exception, it has always been what I just described.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top