All new American Pro Tour! NBL - National Billiards League

Sandman

Sandcastle Room Owner
Silver Member
Despite the pandemic and current second wave, we are STILL pushing forward and preparing for kickoff once nationwide restrictions are lifted! States that ARE open and able to host their qualifiers January 9th & 10th WILL DO SO. Those that may not be able to host at that time will have alternate dates for amateur players to qualify into the main event slated for March 2021.

Sixty-Four amateur players will earn their way in through $150 amateur only qualifiers held all across the United States (including Hawaii & Alaska).

Sixty-Four established (or retired) professionals may buy in the main event for $1,000 as they are exempt from qualifiers.

*Must be a US resident to participate

ALL OPEN BOOK - FULL DETAILS on the main website... NBLUSA.com

Promo Video:

We’re Uniting and Organizing:

NBL Strucure; How does it work?
 
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iusedtoberich

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Can you say where the money is coming from? Assuming full fields, the main event is advertised as 200k purse, with 128 member at 1k entry each. That leaves 72k to come from elsewhere. Plus all the venue setup expenses, advertising expenses, etc. And that happens 4x per year. That's a lot of money to come up with for the year.

I recall 3 tours that tried to do similar of regional qualifiers feeding into a national main event. Most recent was Joe Tucker's American Rotation league. Before that was the N.U.T.S. system that tried to unify the regional events to feed into a national event. And before that, was the IPT.

I feel that if you don't show that you have all this cash in hand, you might end up with 12 players in the qualifiers instead of 32. And the main event might have 48 players instead of 128. When the IPT qualifiers were going, they couldn't fill the fields, and that was with a multimillionaire putting up the cash (before all his money problems).
 

Sandman

Sandcastle Room Owner
Silver Member
Can you say where the money is coming from? Assuming full fields, the main event is advertised as 200k purse, with 128 member at 1k entry each. That leaves 72k to come from elsewhere. Plus all the venue setup expenses, advertising expenses, etc. And that happens 4x per year. That's a lot of money to come up with for the year.
Thanks for your analysis but it is way off. It's not 128 players paying $1,000 entry - only the 64 professionals are, to get in the stage 2 - quarterly main event. We have 32 venues hosting 2 Stage 1 qualifiers each quarter for a total 64 amateurs to advance FULLY SPONSORED (flights, hotels, uniforms & tour card) to stage 2 for that quarter. It is all explained on the website and some 2 minute videos included in the original post as well as on social media and Youtube.

Visit NBLUSA.com and click on "Learn More" and read "The Magic Formula". In a nutshell, 32 players entering a $150 stage 1 qualifier at each of the 32 locations twice each quarter PLUS 64 pros paying in at $1,000. (The top 8 finishers AT EACH qualifier all win CASH that day PLUS the $2500 1st place sponsorship prize package)
I recall 3 tours that tried to do similar of regional qualifiers feeding into a national main event. Most recent was Joe Tucker's American Rotation league. Before that was the N.U.T.S. system that tried to unify the regional events to feed into a national event. And before that, was the IPT.
All good attempts and some good people involved but flawed plans and implementation.
I feel that if you don't show that you have all this cash in hand, you might end up with 12 players in the qualifiers instead of 32. And the main event might have 48 players instead of 128. When the IPT qualifiers were going, they couldn't fill the fields, and that was with a multimillionaire putting up the cash (before all his money problems).
Most qualifiers failed in the past because 1st place only won a spot in the main event with 0 travel or lodging expenses and then 2nd place git a pat on the back and nothing else. Players must ALSO do their part and simply show up to participate. We'll handle everything else. Venues, Streams, Advertising, Flights, Hotels, Uniforms, Scheduling, Seeding, Organizing,
 
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iusedtoberich

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks for your analysis but it is way off. It's not 128 players paying $1,000 entry - only the 64 professionals are, to get in the stage 2 - quarterly main event. We have 32 venues hosting 2 Stage 1 qualifiers each quarter for a total 64 amateurs to advance FULLY SPONSORED (flights, hotels, uniforms & tour card) to stage 2 for that quarter. It is all explained on the website and some 2 minute videos included in the original post as well as on social media and Youtube.

Visit NBLUSA.com and click on "Learn More" and read "The Magic Formula". In a nutshell, 32 players entering a $150 stage 1 qualifier at each of the 32 locations twice each quarter PLUS 64 pros paying in at $1,000. (The top 8 finishers AT EACH qualifier all win CASH that day PLUS the $2500 1st place sponsorship prize package)

All good attempts and some good people involved but flawed plans and implementation.

Most qualifiers failed in the past because 1st place only won a spot in the main event with 0 travel or lodging expenses and then 2nd place git a pat on the back and nothing else. Players must ALSO do their part and simply show up to participate. We'll handle everything else. Venues, Streams, Advertising, Flights, Hotels, Uniforms, Scheduling, Seeding, Organizing,
Thanks for helping to explain. FYI I did read through your website immediately before asking the question. I still asked the questions because the website was not clear. Even after your answer here, I am not clear. I did see on your website that only the pros pay the 1k, and the 64 amateur winners earn entry into the main event. I assumed from that information that the 64 amateurs would still be paying the 1k entry into the main event, but it would be given given to them for entry (and held by you) when they win the qualifier. The videos are well made and flashy, but they don't answer this basic money question. If you are paying 200k in the main, and you now said only 64k comes in from the pro entry fees, well where does the rest of the now 136k come from. Sorry I'm not trying to be an azz, its just this money question is a big one. You're basically proposing 4 International Open level events every year. And those events are hard for the promotor to raise the money to put on and pay out the field.
 

Sandman

Sandcastle Room Owner
Silver Member
Thanks for helping to explain. FYI I did read through your website immediately before asking the question. I still asked the questions because the website was not clear. Even after your answer here, I am not clear. I did see on your website that only the pros pay the 1k, and the 64 amateur winners earn entry into the main event. I assumed from that information that the 64 amateurs would still be paying the 1k entry into the main event, but it would be given given to them for entry (and held by you) when they win the qualifier. The videos are well made and flashy, but they don't answer this basic money question. If you are paying 200k in the main, and you now said only 64k comes in from the pro entry fees, well where does the rest of the now 136k come from. Sorry I'm not trying to be an azz, its just this money question is a big one. You're basically proposing 4 International Open level events every year. And those events are hard for the promotor to raise the money to put on and pay out the field.
I'm LOLing right now. I'm ALSO not trying to be an ass. I'll try to explain it again but more clearly. Text can easily be misinterpreted without tone or misunderstood completely. By the way I'm the TD at the International Open and also house Pat Fleming and the Accu-Stats Arena at my pool room, Sandcastle Billiards where the "Make It Happen" series of pro events were hosted.. I'm very familiar with the challenges and expenses involved.

The NBL is designed as a SELF-SUSTAINING entity which generates all our prize purses internally, independent of sponsors or advertisers (that's gravy on top later on when WE set our own price for advertising their products) and distributes it back to the players as all venues involved also benefit as well as host the 4 main events each year - NOT casinos or Hotels that price gouge and take full advantage of our industry. NBL is for the PLAYERS and RETURNING pool back to the POOL ROOMS.

Anyhow allow me to better explain...
32 locations hosting stage 1 qualifiers with 32 players each @ $150 entry fee TWICE each quarter PLUS the 64 pro entries = well over $350k which will also cover the 64 amateur winners' flights, hotels, uniforms and tour card, 32 venues usage of tables and establishments, 32 tour directors' pay for rounding up players collecting entries and running the qualifiers, main event professional production crew, referees, announcers, commentators, host/hostesses etc. There's a lot more but I think you get the gist. I'm handling ALL of that. My only request is that PLAYERS do their part and participate in their local AMATEUR ONLY Qualifiers for $150 where the top 8 out of the 32 max players win cash that day just like any other weekly tournament, weekend tour stop or monthly event.

Did I miss anything? LOL I'm happy to explain further and answer any and ALL questions. OR you can watch the hour long podcast online as well or listen to them on a long car ride to the pool room to practice. :😄:
 

krupa

The Dream Operator
Silver Member
Excuse my ignorance (and I've been out of touch with the pool world for a while)... you said that winning amateurs are fully sponsored and that includes flights, hotels, uniforms & tour card. What's a tour card for? Is there a bigger "tour" than there used to be?
 

Scrunge19

Registered
I'm sorry but your math doesn't add up to me either. You mention that the stage 1 qualifiers plus the pro entries totals more than $350k, but that’s the gross amount you’ve brought in. Your actual net number available to pay out in the main event is actually substantially less than the $200k you want to pay out. I've broken my math down step by step to illustrate.
  • Each stage 1 qualifier has 32 players @ $150 = $4,800 in cash you've brought in
  • These qualifiers pay out to 8th place so let's call that $1,500 in payouts.
  • The winner also receives a "$2,500 prize package on top" but we'll exclude the $1,000 main event entrance fee as the only true cash expense you're incurring here is the remaining $1,500 in travel/lodging/uniform expense
  • This brings your total proceeds from a stage 1 qualifier to $1,800 ($4,800 gross - $1,500 in 1st-8th payouts - $1,500 travel expenses = $1,800). Take that times 32 qualifiers, twice a quarter and that brings your total stage 1 qualifier revenue to $115,200 ($1,800 per qualifier * 32 qualifiers * 2 times a quarter = $115,200)
  • For the main event you're going to allow 64 professionals to buy in at $1,000/entry so that adds another $64,000 to your prize pool (64 * $1,000 = $64,000)
  • So the qualifiers plus the pro entry fees brings your total cash in the door up to $179,200 ($115,200 + $64,000 = $179,200), for a tournament that's advertising a $200,000 prize pool...
So by my count you're $20,000 short already. And the numbers I used above don't even consider all of the expenses you will incur for "32 venues usage of tables and establishments, 32 tour directors' pay for rounding up players collecting entries and running the qualifiers, main event professional production crew, referees, announcers, commentators, host/hostesses etc." I have no idea how much more that will run you, but it certainly calls into question just how self sustaining this league is.
 

Sandman

Sandcastle Room Owner
Silver Member
Excuse my ignorance (and I've been out of touch with the pool world for a while)... you said that winning amateurs are fully sponsored and that includes flights, hotels, uniforms & tour card. What's a tour card for? Is there a bigger "tour" than there used to be?
Correct. The tour card grants the amateur an option to buy in to the next main event (like a pro can) should they not qualify in.
 

Sandman

Sandcastle Room Owner
Silver Member
I'm sorry but your math doesn't add up to me either. You mention that the stage 1 qualifiers plus the pro entries totals more than $350k, but that’s the gross amount you’ve brought in. Your actual net number available to pay out in the main event is actually substantially less than the $200k you want to pay out. I've broken my math down step by step to illustrate.
  • Each stage 1 qualifier has 32 players @ $150 = $4,800 in cash you've brought in
  • These qualifiers pay out to 8th place so let's call that $1,500 in payouts.
  • The winner also receives a "$2,500 prize package on top" but we'll exclude the $1,000 main event entrance fee as the only true cash expense you're incurring here is the remaining $1,500 in travel/lodging/uniform expense
  • This brings your total proceeds from a stage 1 qualifier to $1,800 ($4,800 gross - $1,500 in 1st-8th payouts - $1,500 travel expenses = $1,800). Take that times 32 qualifiers, twice a quarter and that brings your total stage 1 qualifier revenue to $115,200 ($1,800 per qualifier * 32 qualifiers * 2 times a quarter = $115,200)
  • For the main event you're going to allow 64 professionals to buy in at $1,000/entry so that adds another $64,000 to your prize pool (64 * $1,000 = $64,000)
  • So the qualifiers plus the pro entry fees brings your total cash in the door up to $179,200 ($115,200 + $64,000 = $179,200), for a tournament that's advertising a $200,000 prize pool...
So by my count you're $20,000 short already. And the numbers I used above don't even consider all of the expenses you will incur for "32 venues usage of tables and establishments, 32 tour directors' pay for rounding up players collecting entries and running the qualifiers, main event professional production crew, referees, announcers, commentators, host/hostesses etc." I have no idea how much more that will run you, but it certainly calls into question just how self sustaining this league is.
 

Sandman

Sandcastle Room Owner
Silver Member
I love the amount of interest and time taken studying the formula. You were right with $4,800 generated at each qualifier. After that, you’ve assumed incorrectly.

Out of the $4,800.00 generated, the venue and TD each get a mere $300 for all their efforts and contribution. ($600 total)
The remaining $4,200.00 gets sent in.

$4,200.00 x 32 locations x 2 = $268,800.00
(After TD & Venue pay) ($307,200.00 Gross)

The top 8 players win cash via money raised from preceding satellite events run locally and/or Calcutta where allowed.

We work tirelessly before, during and after events to make them possible.

Ready to sign up now? :😄:
 

Sandman

Sandcastle Room Owner
Silver Member
PS Don’t apologize for being intrigued and wanting to know more while taking precautions. Many before me haven’t been transparent or honest. I’m dumb enough to take on the challenge of changing the course of the industry here in America. I work from my heart, not my wallet. WE NEED A PRO TOUR. We also need one with professionalism and integrity. I need all of your support and participation.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Good luck to you Dee! This is a very ambitious undertaking you've engaged yourself in. I know from my past experience that you will end up putting in some of your own money to "make it happen." :D

I wish you well. If I can help you let me know. I don't have a room at this time and I'm not sure there are any left in Los Angeles that could accommodate your events. Maybe somewhere else in California there is. Right now seems to be a bad time to consider something like this with just about everything closed down. You've got bigger balls than me. 😁

I admire anyone who is trying to do anything to grow this game we all love.
 

Scrunge19

Registered
Your comment about how the top 8 of the qualifiers is still pretty unclear so it might be worth explaining that better on your website.

Also, you're still excluding $1,500 per qualifier for travel/lodging expense (the cash piece of the $2,500 prize pack you describe) so the amount of money you're generating from each qualifier is $2,700 ($4,800 - $300 - $300 - $1,500), not $4,200. That generates you $172,800 plus the $64,000 in pro entries gets you up to $236,800. Seems awfully tight against the margins of making all those people you listed get paid plus paying out the full $200k.

I wish you good luck in your endeavor, but ultimately I'm still skeptical that this idea will be any different than those that came before it. I think the logistics alone of what you're proposing are extremely optimistic, never mind the money and current health issues the nation is dealing with. Trying to hold, or at least be involved in, 260 tournaments in your first year of operation seems far too rushed. I'd think it better to start with a smaller, more manageable schedule and grow over time.
 

Sandman

Sandcastle Room Owner
Silver Member
Good luck to you Dee! This is a very ambitious undertaking you've engaged yourself in. I know from my past experience that you will end up putting in some of your own money to "make it happen." :D

I wish you well. If I can help you let me know. I don't have a room at this time and I'm not sure there are any left in Los Angeles that could accommodate your events. Maybe somewhere else in California there is. Right now seems to be a bad time to consider something like this with just about everything closed down. You've got bigger balls than me. 😁

I admire anyone who is trying to do anything to grow this game we all love.
Thank you so much for your support and stamp of approval Jay! It means a lot coming from you. Sincerely! However, this is not Dee but rather Ed Liddawi, owner of Sandcastle Billiards, TD & MC at The International Open, MC at last year’s DCC ring banks, BCA Board of Directors, ICEA Board Member and blah blah a bunch of other things. LOL

I started this project before Covid came about and refuse to allow this pandemic to kill what many of us dream about having. I opened my pool room in 2007 and the economy crashed in 2008. Sandcastle billiards rose up through that. I plan on pushing forward with the NBL as the Phoenix rising out of the pandemic.

I will find a role for you in all this as well. Haha I need all the help and cooperation from those brethren in the game with experience, knowledge, resources or even positive energy.
 
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iusedtoberich

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks for the explanation. I understand now that the qualifiers are funding the prize fund of the main event.

PS, I was at your room once for the Barton match. Nice room, and you have a Movistar commentating voice;)
 

Sandman

Sandcastle Room Owner
Silver Member
Your comment about how the top 8 of the qualifiers is still pretty unclear so it might be worth explaining that better on your website.

Also, you're still excluding $1,500 per qualifier for travel/lodging expense (the cash piece of the $2,500 prize pack you describe) so the amount of money you're generating from each qualifier is $2,700 ($4,800 - $300 - $300 - $1,500), not $4,200. That generates you $172,800 plus the $64,000 in pro entries gets you up to $236,800. Seems awfully tight against the margins of making all those people you listed get paid plus paying out the full $200k.

I wish you good luck in your endeavor, but ultimately I'm still skeptical that this idea will be any different than those that came before it. I think the logistics alone of what you're proposing are extremely optimistic, never mind the money and current health issues the nation is dealing with. Trying to hold, or at least be involved in, 260 tournaments in your first year of operation seems far too rushed. I'd think it better to start with a smaller, more manageable schedule and grow over time.
I’ve already crunched all the numbers and looked into flights and hotel costs from all over the country to each of the 4 slated main events. It’s okay to be skeptical but as an organizer, I don’t have time to explain every little detail to every skeptic along the way. There’s a lot of work to be done around the clock and I’ve already been involved with the US Open, The International Open, Derby City Classic, JOY Chinese 8-Ball Grand Finals and thousands of smaller events in my 13 years in the industry, and 27 years total in the game. I’ve seen the expenses & the hurdles and have devised a plan to resolve all of it.
I ONLY ASK YOU TO DO YOUR PART AND PARTICIPATE. I’ll figure out all the rest. All you have to do is show up to play and enjoy! Take this energy you’re wasting on scrutinizing numbers and put it into PROMOTING the game and have a little faith in something GOOD being done for ALL OF US to enjoy.
 
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Sandman

Sandcastle Room Owner
Silver Member
Thanks for the explanation. I understand now that the qualifiers are funding the prize fund of the main event.

PS, I was at your room once for the Barton match. Nice room, and you have a Movistar commentating voice;)
Thank you much!!! Thanks for coming through. Several upgrades have been made since then. Hopefully I’ll be able to use my voice to get more attention from main steam to our beloved pool world.
 
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