American 14.1 Straight Pool Championship (Oct 24-29), Norfolk, Winner $10K

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Zielinski is playing at a level where Mosconi and Greenleaf might need weight.
Different era, different equipment. When the new balls and other upgrades became popular Lou Butera began running hundreds with his fast play, and that changed the game. All the defense in the world couldn't stop Lou when he got a shot. I saw him fall behind in a 1,000 point challenge with Joe Balsis by over 200 points, and he caught up and went ahead in two innings. He ended up winning by over 200 points.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
When do you think he hit the cue ball the second time Jay?
When I watched the video. It looked bad to me, but I have no way to slow it down on my computer. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time either. :)
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
That’s for sure. Sadly I never met Beenie , I know Nick real well. Great guys.

Hope ur good Jay😃😃
You would have loved beenie. Smooth as silk and smart as they come. He was the hustler's hustler! He charmed you into a slumber and made you smile while you were going off. He liked me and let me be his partner in a Blackjack game he ran. All I did was keep track of the bets and make the payoffs and the collections after each hand. We won 6K that night (mid 70's) and that was a big score back then. The next day we laid out by the pool and he enticed me to play a little Gin Rummy. I blew back a thou to him before I wised up. He was good!
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wiktor runs 136 out on Filler. After he ran 150 out on FSR (who ran 145 prior thereto)

The commentary still has this “noblesse oblige” vibe where they were referring to “rotation style” players.

Wiktor played beautiful straight pool. Like 1 or 2 inning straight pool. On a Diamond. Good end patterns and nice creativity to solve problems.

That’s good enough to hold your own in any era.

Really impressive stuff. Wiktor knows the game for sure.

yea, the rotation style comment is getting worn out. the late great george fels said the same about hohmann. it's just purism, imo.

as you write these guys run sets out on diamond tables. i may be wrong but i think this is the third or fourth iteration with diamond tables and there's no doubt they can handle them quite well. bobby said in the coms that filler runs 200 balls every day on 4.25 inch pockets.
 

7stud

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I watched the video. It looked bad to me, but I have no way to slow it down on my computer. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time either. :)
If you watch the video on youtube, at the bottom of the player there is a little gear icon, which you can click to reveal a setting for the playback speed--doesn't matter what computer you have. Cory didn't double hit the cue ball nor did he hit a ball with his stick after he scratched.
 

markjames

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
yea, the rotation style comment is getting worn out. the late great george fels said the same about hohmann. it's just purism, imo.

as you write these guys run sets out on diamond tables. i may be wrong but i think this is the third or fourth iteration with diamond tables and there's no doubt they can handle them quite well. bobby said in the coms that filler runs 200 balls every day on 4.25 inch pockets.
yes he also set jayson shaw up to run seven hundred balls on seven inch wide pockets and guess what he did it and took the world record
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
yea, the rotation style comment is getting worn out. the late great george fels said the same about hohmann. it's just purism, imo.

as you write these guys run sets out on diamond tables. i may be wrong but i think this is the third or fourth iteration with diamond tables and there's no doubt they can handle them quite well. bobby said in the coms that filler runs 200 balls every day on 4.25 inch pockets.
It's completely worn out. The debate over the "old style" vs the "new style" is moot and it has been for many years.

I first went to the World Straight Pool Championships in 1976 and have been to more than a dozen of them. Yes, they played on slower cloth, deader rails, and the balls were of poorer quality. Nine-ball wasn't in vogue yet, although it was the year of the first US Open 9-ball event.

The players of yesteryear knew the best way to run the balls on the equipment with which they were presented. As the conditions were slower, break shots had to be hit harder and getting close to the break ball mattered much more back then than it does now. This is one of the reasons that those who played the best patterns (like Dallas West, Jim Rempe, Mike Sigel and Nick Varner) were consistently successful. There were far more missed break shots back then than now, even though the pockets were looser.

Today's players play on faster equipment and shoot much, much straighter. It's not as important to get tight on the break shot as in the past, and the balls spread quite easily when the pack is hit. Precise, simple patterns are less necessary in an era in which the top players can, seemingly, use any three balls as their last three of the rack and still find good shape onto almost any break shot time and time again. As I've opined on the forum before, for every straight shooter there was back then, there are at least five of them today.

So yes, to the inflexible, and almost delusional purist, the game of straight pool is played with a little less technical elegance and skill than it was prior to the nine-ball era. To the enlightened onlooker, however, both the old timers and the new crop of superstars are deserving of fullest respect. Each group has been highly successful in handling the conditions with which they were presented. Beautiful patterns are still a joy to behold, but today's best keep reminding us that they are, at least to a point, dispensable. The position play skills at the top have evolved so far that getting onto the break shot is nearly never a problem, and even with tight pockets, today's players shoot so straight that they don't need to be on top of the break ball to succeed.

I am a confirmed "old schooler," but one who refuses to partake in the fiction that the old timers were better straight pool players than today's players. The game has evolved, and while good pattern players still reap rewards, those with weaker pattern play but highly superior rotation pool skills tend to get more than their share, too. My opinion is that it's only in the area of safety play that the old timers were better players.

Is there anybody anywhere that thinks the new breed would have had any issue on the conditions of yesteryear? I remember when the IPT 8-ball tour emerged in 2006. At Mike Sigel's direction, they went back to slower cloth. Sigel famously predicted that the hall of famers in the field would thrive under those conditions. At IPT Las Vegas in 2006, Trudeau guaranteed a minimum payout of $30,000 to each of the fifteen or so hall of famers in the field. Those that cashed for more than $30,000 would, of course, earn more. The number of old timers that cashed for more than the guaranteed minimum was ZERO! For those that like a trip down memory lane, Thorsten Hohmann won $350,000 by beating Marlon Manalo in the final at that event. No. Sigel's prediction that the old schoolers would thrive on the slower equipment proved to be as wrong as wrong could be.

We're watching the best players that ever played the game. Yes, they play a little differently than some of those that came before, but their results speak volumes. We really need to stand up and applaud today's crop for bringing an unprecedented level of excellence to all the disciplines in pool.
 
Last edited:

philly

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
It's completely worn out. The debate over the "old style" vs the "new style" is moot and it has been for many years.

I first went to the World Straight Pool Championships in 1976 and have been to more than a dozen of them. Yes, they played on slower cloth, deader rails, and the balls were of poorer quality. Nine-ball wasn't in vogue yet, although it was the year of the first US Open 9-ball event.

The players of yesteryear knew the best way to run the balls on the equipment with which they were presented. As the conditions were slower, break shots had to be hit harder and getting close to the break ball mattered much more back then than it does now. This is one of the reasons that those who played the best patterns (like Dallas West, Jim Rempe, Mike Sigel and Nick Varner) were consistently successful. There were far more missed break shots back then than now, even though the pockets were looser.

Today's players play on faster equipment and shoot much, much straighter. It's not as important to get tight on the break shot as in the past, and the balls spread quite easily when the pack is hit. Precise, simple patterns are less necessary in an era in which the top players can, seemingly, use any three balls as their last three of the rack and still find good shape onto almost any break shot time and time again. As I've opined on the forum before, for every straight shooter there was back then, there are at least five of them today.

So yes, to the inflexible, and almost delusional purist, the game of straight pool is played with a little less technical elegance and skill than it was prior to the nine-ball era. To the enlightened onlooker, however, both the old timers and the new crop of superstars are deserving of fullest respect. Each group has been highly successful in handling the conditions with which they were presented. Beautiful patterns are still a joy to behold, but today's best keep reminding us that they are, at least to a point, dispensable. The position plays skills at the top have evolved so far that getting onto the break shot is nearly never a problem, and even with tight pockets, today's players shoot so straight that thy don't need to be on top of the break ball to succeed.

I am a confirmed "old schooler," but one who refuses to partake in the fiction that the old timers were better straight pool players than today's players. The game has evolved, and while good pattern players still reap rewards, those with weaker pattern play but highly superior rotation pool skills tend to get more than their share, too. My opinion is that it's only in the area of safety play that the old timers were better players.

Is there anybody anywhere that thinks the new breed would have had any issue on the conditions of yesteryear? I remember when the IPT 8-ball tour emerged in 2006. At Mike Sigel's direction, they went back to slower cloth. Sigel famously predicted that the hall of famers in the field would thrive under those conditions. At IPT Las Vegas in 2006, Trudeau guaranteed a minimum payout of $30,000 to each hall of famer in the field. Those that cashed for more than $30,000 would, of course, earn more. The number of old timers that cashed for more than the guaranteed minimum was ZERO! For those that like a trip down memory lane, Thorsten Hohmann won $350,000 by beating Marlon Manalo in the final at that event. No Sigel's prediction that the old schoolers would thrive on the slower equipment proved to be as wrong as wrong could be.

We're watching the best players that ever played the game. Yes, they play a little differently than some of those that came before, but their results speak volumes. We really need to stand up and applaud today's crop for bringing an unprecedented level of excellence to all the disciplines in pool.
Excellent post and well explained.
The world's top players today are surgeons on the table.
They practice, practice, practice.
They have to.
The competition is that tough nowadays.
The old timers, if they were coming up today would adjust to the new conditions and still be world beaters.
The game has changed.
Period.
 

JusticeNJ

Four Points/Steel Joints
Gold Member
Silver Member
It's completely worn out. The debate over the "old style" vs the "new style" is moot and it has been for many years.

I first went to the World Straight Pool Championships in 1976 and have been to more than a dozen of them. Yes, they played on slower cloth, deader rails, and the balls were of poorer quality. Nine-ball wasn't in vogue yet, although it was the year of the first US Open 9-ball event.

The players of yesteryear knew the best way to run the balls on the equipment with which they were presented. As the conditions were slower, break shots had to be hit harder and getting close to the break ball mattered much more back then than it does now. This is one of the reasons that those who played the best patterns (like Dallas West, Jim Rempe, Mike Sigel and Nick Varner) were consistently successful. There were far more missed break shots back then than now, even though the pockets were looser.

Today's players play on faster equipment and shoot much, much straighter. It's not as important to get tight on the break shot as in the past, and the balls spread quite easily when the pack is hit. Precise, simple patterns are less necessary in an era in which the top players can, seemingly, use any three balls as their last three of the rack and still find good shape onto almost any break shot time and time again. As I've opined on the forum before, for every straight shooter there was back then, there are at least five of them today.

So yes, to the inflexible, and almost delusional purist, the game of straight pool is played with a little less technical elegance and skill than it was prior to the nine-ball era. To the enlightened onlooker, however, both the old timers and the new crop of superstars are deserving of fullest respect. Each group has been highly successful in handling the conditions with which they were presented. Beautiful patterns are still a joy to behold, but today's best keep reminding us that they are, at least to a point, dispensable. The position play skills at the top have evolved so far that getting onto the break shot is nearly never a problem, and even with tight pockets, today's players shoot so straight that they don't need to be on top of the break ball to succeed.

I am a confirmed "old schooler," but one who refuses to partake in the fiction that the old timers were better straight pool players than today's players. The game has evolved, and while good pattern players still reap rewards, those with weaker pattern play but highly superior rotation pool skills tend to get more than their share, too. My opinion is that it's only in the area of safety play that the old timers were better players.

Is there anybody anywhere that thinks the new breed would have had any issue on the conditions of yesteryear? I remember when the IPT 8-ball tour emerged in 2006. At Mike Sigel's direction, they went back to slower cloth. Sigel famously predicted that the hall of famers in the field would thrive under those conditions. At IPT Las Vegas in 2006, Trudeau guaranteed a minimum payout of $30,000 to each of the fifteen or so hall of famers in the field. Those that cashed for more than $30,000 would, of course, earn more. The number of old timers that cashed for more than the guaranteed minimum was ZERO! For those that like a trip down memory lane, Thorsten Hohmann won $350,000 by beating Marlon Manalo in the final at that event. No. Sigel's prediction that the old schoolers would thrive on the slower equipment proved to be as wrong as wrong could be.

We're watching the best players that ever played the game. Yes, they play a little differently than some of those that came before, but their results speak volumes. We really need to stand up and applaud today's crop for bringing an unprecedented level of excellence to all the disciplines in pool.
Beautifully said, Stu. Your keyboard to God’s screen.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Different era, different equipment. When the new balls and other upgrades became popular Lou Butera began running hundreds with his fast play, and that changed the game. All the defense in the world couldn't stop Lou when he got a shot. I saw him fall behind in a 1,000 point challenge with Joe Balsis by over 200 points, and he caught up and went ahead in two innings. He ended up winning by over 200 points.
Obviously, I'm just having a little fun with my comment about Mosconi and Greenleaf, but I saw Pat Fleming at breakfast this morning and we chatted briefly about Sanchez-Ruiz vs Zielinski, yesterday's "Round of 16" match.

Sanchez-Ruiz opened with 145 and Zielinski answered with 150 and out. Neither of us could remember a match as crazy as that one, although we recalled a match in which Pete Margo ran over 100 and Balsis answered with 138 and out, in approximately 1979.

In the quarterfinals, Zielinski ran 136 and out on Filler. During the round robin stage, Zielinski had a "continuation run" of 214. I've been attending 14.1 events live for 46 years, and I've never seen anyone get hotter than Zielinski is right now. If he closes the deal today, I'll call this a historically great performance.
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Obviously, I'm just having a little fun with my comment about Mosconi and Greenleaf, but I saw Pat Fleming at breakfast this morning and we chatted briefly about Sanchez-Ruiz vs Zielinski, yesterday's "Round of 16" match.

Sanchez-Ruiz opened with 145 and Zielinski answered with 150 and out. Neither of us could remember a match as crazy as that one, although we recalled a match in which Pete Margo ran over 100 and Balsis answered with 138 and out, in approximately 1979.

In the quarterfinals, Zielinski ran 136 and out on Filler. During the round robin stage, Zielinski had a "continuation run" of 214. I've been attending 14.1 events live for 46 years, and I've never seen anyone get hotter than Zielinski is right now. If he closes the deal today, I'll call this a historically great performance.

filler's win last year was very impressive, with a very memorable semifinal winning shot, but maybe zielinski is even hotter.
 

Badpenguin

Active member
When I watched the video. It looked bad to me, but I have no way to slow it down on my computer. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time either. :)
In youtube, load the video at 51:55, click the play button and immediately hit your space bar to pause it. Then the period (.) key goes a frame forward, the comma (,) key goes a frame backwards. It is a pathetically low frame rate video, but still enough to not see a double hit...
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tried watching He-Jungo. WTF??? Watching grass grow is more entertaining. No wonder this game is all but dead.
 

SmoothStroke

Swim for the win.
Silver Member
Anybody who knows somebody who knows everybody please get the letter down to Virginia.
They have no clue what the race is they are commentating on, or the upcoming matches, aren't they there?
If you're going to do commentary at least know what the format is. I'm not sure what they're playing to, could be 150, 175, maybe 7000,,,, again WTF.
They are too busy playing authors of the straight pool encyclopedia.
Just terrible
Now I am going to make a Bolognese and hit the mute button.
For my own mental health I should start with the mute button.
 

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member

Jungo vs He streaming now. Jungo with a 100 ball lead in the race to 175 as He steps to the table.
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tried watching He-Jungo. WTF??? Watching grass grow is more entertaining. No wonder this game is all but dead.

unfortunately us fans have no say in who's gonna reach the semis. i'll avoid jungos dentistry, which i assume is ongoing, slow and painful, and check in when the polish boys show up
 

JusticeNJ

Four Points/Steel Joints
Gold Member
Silver Member
They should use a clock. Jungo walked around the table for 3 mins before taking a foul by bunting the stack.

Bob Keller has yet to see a shot he likes as a commentator.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Zielinski is in the finals now…love watching him play.
would like to have Stu and Bob Jewett commentate on the finals.
 
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