Anniversary, GC or Diamond?

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Good point! The rubber is much harder and firmer on a diamond with its accu fast cushions versus the superspeed brand on the Brunswick.... .

Those pinch shots are now double kiss shots and many people have extreme difficulty going back and forth between brands....

I don't care which company gets the money! I care about the sport making equipment standard enough that play is identical regardless of brand and company! The manufacturers should be competing on looks and price and durability! Playability should be uniform and we all know that it is not....

Kd

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Diamond used to have Super Speed but they had problems with them.
Then they switched to Championship then eventually to the Artemis ( not Accufast. That's Olhausen ).
Artemis just grabs the ball too much and the pros like Joey Gray keep saying they are springy .
He kept saying that in the big match this weekend .
 

sellingboe

Active member
Good post! And I agree with you in principle, but a strong part of me believes that much in the same way no two golf courses are the same, the differences in pool tables around the world should be considered a challenge, not a detriment. Challenge brings out greatness.
Interesting point. I've might also have compared pool tables to tennis courts: grass court, clay court, asphalt. The game is the same but how one court surface affects the ball vs. another is the challenge. There are some hard, fast expectations one should have for any table, like no matter what rubber is used the angle of incidence should equal the angle of reflection (no spin). When people say Diamonds bank short, this law of physics is what pops into my head. That said, if we have inconsistent standards in pool table manufacturing, then we have a Darwinian field of play and the caveat then is to adapt or die (lose). Some players adapt faster than others. I'm guessing Efren Reyes would adapt quickly and start kicking ass.
 

Boxcar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
On any given table, both players are subject to the exact same conditions. The guy who can't handle the challenges usually loses.

Only the strong survive.

Or, as an old golfing buddy of mine used to say,

"The captain of the team had an eagle,
The second man had a par!
The third man on the team had a double bogey,
And he's down drinkin' beer in the bar."
 

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
Diamond used to have Super Speed but they had problems with them.
Then they switched to Championship then eventually to the Artemis ( not Accufast. That's Olhausen ).
Artemis just grabs the ball too much and the pros like Joey Gray keep saying they are springy .
He kept saying that in the big match this weekend .
This makes my point! 3 different types of rubber rails and all 3 are totally different .

With banking being so big in the games of pocket billiards ! You have no way of knowing what brand of rubber is under the cloth!

Like you said, diamond has used all 3 brands at different periods of time and Efren is clueless what he is encountering harry houdini doesn't even know!

Derby uses roughly 50 tables and all 50 can have anything under the rails.......

With such a tight time table for matches, practice time and access to the equipment is minimal to down right non existent! You barely know which table you are going to be on and often the table assignment is modified due to late matches.

Pool is brutal, best analogy is Larry Bird asked to shoot 3 point shots with a woffle ball for a basketball on a windy day .....

Outcome is going to be less than optimal......

Kd

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I talked to an old road-dog about tables and conditions one time. He said he usually had a table figured out within the first 20-30min. He said it was either that or maybe not eat that day. All tables play different so one might as well get good at deciphering each one you play on.
 

Boxcar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I talked to an old road-dog about tables and conditions one time. He said he usually had a table figured out within the first 20-30min. He said it was either that or maybe not eat that day. All tables play different so one might as well get good at deciphering each one you play on.
I think I was 19 years old when I learned it. Never bet against a one-armed pool player from another town.
 

phreaticus

Active member
I talked to an old road-dog about tables and conditions one time. He said he usually had a table figured out within the first 20-30min. He said it was either that or maybe not eat that day. All tables play different so one might as well get good at deciphering each one you play on.
I’m as frustrated by the way Diamond rails play as any lover of GC’s can be, but garzar’s paragraph above seems pretty spot on. Even pre Diamond, everyone had to have experience on GC’s and Valley BB’s at a minimum and every table plays different... Always so many variable tabke conditions, etc... Seems like great progress to me, as well as the made in USA factor. Don’t we all need to keep adapting & evolving? The golf course & tennis court analogies seem self evident, or really any sport played at a high level...?

p
 

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Very interesting post here and also very accurate. I've owned a Diamond Pro-Am with one piece slate for six years now. Four years ago I had it converted from red label to blue label rails ($$$). It is imperative that I regularly check the tightness of the rails (bolts underneath) every month or so. They tend to come loose and the table develops roll offs. One other nagging problem that may be due to rail design is the difficulty in banking a ball that is on the side rail within an inch of the side pocket. Being a Bank Pool player this bothers me since there are certain shots that are unavailable on my table that I can shoot on a GC.

This brings up a larger issue that has only been briefly discussed on here so far. That is how different the Diamond plays from the GC. Very, very different is all I can say about that. It's a whole new learning curve to learn how to bank on a Diamond. Not only do the rails bank shorter, but there are shots that can be made on a Diamond that would be impossible on a GC. I was always pretty good about adapting to different table conditions but this one took me a long time to figure out (and I've never quite figured out the intricacies of holding balls on long rail banks and shooting three rails accurately). Let me just say that imo the GC banks correctly and the Diamond does not.

I agree with Bob Jewett about all the flaws in the design of the GC's, most of them having to do with the top and outside of the table and little to do with the construction and framework that holds everything up. I've owned many GC's in my poolrooms and in my home. The frames are built of robust and solid woods (no plywood here) and the slates are mostly the original Italian slate. GC's are robust and heavy tables, made to be durable under severe playing conditions (as in heavy usage every day). I've seen GC's that still are going strong after fifty years in the same poolroom.

Yes, I've busted my knuckles on them, torn my pants on the metal edges and had trouble shooting over the pockets and scoring wheels. But I got used to playing on them and what stands out for me was that when they were set up by a proper mechanic that would play good (and roll true!) for a very long time. In fact they wouldn't even need releveling until you were ready to change the cloth. A good, solid GC plays as good or better than any other table ever made imo.

Back to my Diamond. With the 4.25" corners this is one tough ass table to play on and is a very popular practice table for the pros who come through here. I like to say that if you can get in stroke on this table then you can play on any table.

I guess my dream table would be a GCV if I could find a good one. I love the look of that table. Maybe someone can tell me if they play as good as they look.

P.S. I had a Brunswick Sport King set up by Ernesto in my home many years ago (also 4.25" corners) and it played damn good!
If you ever get to Newark NJ there’s a room south of there that every other table is a GC5 and Blue Label Diamond. The few times I’ve been there the Diamonds are more popular.

Ive never noticed much difference in banking on a Professional Blue label at the pool room and the GC4 I used to own.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
...and this discussion is exactly why I made the choice to play better patterns and shape so I didn't have to concern myself with banking.

The flubber used on diamonds still messes me up when carrying distance with multiple rails for the CB position, but it's all manageable.
 

Boxcar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"...and this discussion is exactly why I made the choice to play better patterns and shape so I didn't have to concern myself with banking." - The_JV

 

Baby Huey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This debate should only be about the GCs 1 and 2. IMO the best table design to date at the time they came out in 1958 or so. Many points have been made comparing the GCs and Diamonds and all are good. My first thought is this: we know how GC 1/2s play when their sixty years old but we don't know how Diamonds will play when they are the same age. The GC was the first table to have a curved rail to fit the natural curve of the bridge hand. When I went to Mosconi exibitions, he did not like this design change because he couldn't see the diamonds when shooting banks or playing position. The other factor which gets lost is the artistic design of the GC. It's Googie Art. For those who don't know what Googie Art is look it up. You'll find the Space Race of the late 1950's incorporated into artistic works quite prevelant. Brunswick changed its logo with the GC. Anyone who has been to LAX and looks at the Space Resturant will see the Brunswick logo on its side in that Googie inspired resturant. Lastly, I own three Diamonds and two Brunswick GC1s in my room. Diamonds ball returns are better designed. Gold Crowns aprons are harder to reassemble. For sheer beauty the GC is hands above the Diamond. The plywood incorporated into Diamonds is bothersome to me and lastly the corner and side pocket hooks that occur because of the deep shelves are game changers when they shouldn't be. But I'm an old fart and it's hard for me to accept change. By the way I do all my gambling on Diamonds so figure that one out.
 

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This debate should only be about the GCs 1 and 2. IMO the best table design to date at the time they came out in 1958 or so. Many points have been made comparing the GCs and Diamonds and all are good. My first thought is this: we know how GC 1/2s play when their sixty years old but we don't know how Diamonds will play when they are the same age. The GC was the first table to have a curved rail to fit the natural curve of the bridge hand. When I went to Mosconi exibitions, he did not like this design change because he couldn't see the diamonds when shooting banks or playing position. The other factor which gets lost is the artistic design of the GC. It's Googie Art. For those who don't know what Googie Art is look it up. You'll find the Space Race of the late 1950's incorporated into artistic works quite prevelant. Brunswick changed its logo with the GC. Anyone who has been to LAX and looks at the Space Resturant will see the Brunswick logo on its side in that Googie inspired resturant. Lastly, I own three Diamonds and two Brunswick GC1s in my room. Diamonds ball returns are better designed. Gold Crowns aprons are harder to reassemble. For sheer beauty the GC is hands above the Diamond. The plywood incorporated into Diamonds is bothersome to me and lastly the corner and side pocket hooks that occur because of the deep shelves are game changers when they shouldn't be. But I'm an old fart and it's hard for me to accept change. By the way I do all my gambling on Diamonds so figure that one out.
Aren’t your Diamonds Red Label?
 

Riley Pitchford

New member
I have had a GC 2 for 30+ years and have moved it to a new house once. If you have the right guy to set it up correctly (like I did) they will play great and last for ever. However those guys are getting harder to find.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Do you find the Diamond to be more prone to double kissing on frozen to the rail banks , Jay ?
You cut the ball as a half ball and still double kiss ?
You have to be very careful on those shots, yes. What's interesting is that you can overcut the ball on shots like this and still squeeze it pretty good. I think this relates to how short the table banks.
 

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes they are and you drilled me sucka. I recovering from this triple bypass just to get an opportunity for some payback. Be good Jim.
I just found out my September Burbank trip canceled. If you can make it to the November tournament that would be great.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
I talked to an old road-dog about tables and conditions one time. He said he usually had a table figured out within the first 20-30min. He said it was either that or maybe not eat that day. All tables play different so one might as well get good at deciphering each one you play on.
Bingo! The conditions were different in every poolroom and even the same type of table would play different from place to place. You had to be able to adjust quickly when it was time to play or you might fall behind at the start. The local player had an edge this way since they played on these tables daily. I liked to watch a game in progress first to get a read on the front table where the money games were going on. I'd estimate it would take me about half an hour to have a table figured out, sometimes less. Remember it was still about putting the balls in the hole and who did it best, and I could usually tell within a couple of racks how strong my competition was.
 
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sellingboe

Active member
Bingo! The conditions were different in every poolroom and even the same type of table would play different from place to place. You had to be able to adjust quickly when it was time to play or you might fall behind at the start. The local player had an edge this way since they played on these tables daily. I liked to watch a game in progress first to get a read on the front table where the money games were going on. I'd estimate it would take me about half and hour to have a table figured out, sometimes less. Remember it was still about putting the balls in the hole and who did it best, and I could usually tell within a couple of racks how strong my competition was.
I am so looking forward to your book, which I saw just shipped today. Pool is a dynamic game....shame it doesn't get more respect. But I LOVE it!
 
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