Well made, hits a ton. 1 shaft has I**vy 1 does not and rings are different, no spaces.dont have means to remove the bumper now. No makers mark anywhere. Early Adams? Early viking? Bought at the bar 40 years ago. Any help is very appreciated.
Another cue ID.
- Thread starter wakuljr
- Start date
Definitely not Viming. Asian. Most likely Adam but possibly KaoKao made. I'll go through my files later and see if I have the exact model and/or how it might have been branded, unless someone else nails it down first.
I have seen this model before for sure, so hopefully I saved a record of it.
I have seen this model before for sure, so hopefully I saved a record of it.
If one of the ferrules is Ivory that should rule out Adam or Asian made.
I was thinking Helmstetter. Would that be before Adams. The splinted 4 veneer points are very good. I can't imagine it was a cheap cue.
Ferrules get changed. I have a 1980 that was found with an ivory ferrule.
That sounds about right but I can't confirm yet. Happily been away from my PC all day. I might stop in my office late tonight, we'll see.
A refinish can remove markings, but I believe I have seen unmarked originals as well. In addition, some model variations not intended originally for the US market were unmarked or marked differently from what I can tell.
Watching a movie with my wife and searching revealed this:
Cue is in excellent condition, comes with two original shafts, nice and straight. Line on one shaft is from rack needs to be cleaned up, not in stroke zone. see pictures. This one is an extreme beauty and great player. Joint protectors included. SOLD shipped.
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Didn't RH make some cues at Hart's shop before getting hired to run the ADAM show?? IIRC there was a post on here yrs ago about this. He made cues to take to J.City tournament. Never seen one or know how they were marked/logo'd. Then he ran the National shop before the ADAM gig. Found it: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/real-helmstetter-cues.154515/ This cue is pretty cool. ADAM shop could do really nice work. Still does if u wanna drop major coin on a Musashi or Kenbu cue.
Just a FYI for ADAM fans: this the the US dist. The cues they offer are all Japanese models. Need to contact them for avail. or lead times if you want a Musashi made. https://adam-ny.com/product-category/cue/
As far as I remember, I have never seen a cue definitively attributed to Helmstetter as an individual (signed or not) before Adam. I have National cues in my collection from the 60's, and he certainly could have made any one of them.
Researching these things is full of pitfalls. Some information in the Blue Book is wrong, and even a maker that was involved with National got some things wrong, or at least what someone said he said as reported on AZB was wrong.
I have seen a Bob Meucci cue, signed, from the 60's, and have posted pictures of it.
Helmstetter did an amazing job with Adam, legendary really, and they have and still do make some very good cues, as you said. There were many "low end" cues made, even with ramin wood. But The mainstream lines, especially the Helmsteter line, and the early Balabushka branded cues, were and are very good cues.
What we know as Adam, today Musashi, has to be the most successful effort to mass produce good quality cues in history, before that we had millions of amazing cues from Brunswick.
The ADAM Japan shop is pretty small and far from 'mass production'. Totally lo-volume hand made cues. Their standard line cues are made in China at the Hamson/Universal plant. Those Kenbu cues for around 12-1500bux look really nice. Classic designs.
True. "Mass produced" has to be taken right. "Hand made" is another term that needs to be taken right. Rows of automated lathes can make dowels, but the final turnings are on lathes with human hands running them, even in the higher volume factories. I think the biggest differences are made with tolerances, quality of materials, and quality control. More about eyes and brains than hands. Nobody is really successfully making cues on wood lathes "by hand" anymore except in places like Pampanga. A cue maker needs to know how to program and troubleshoot CNC machines today. Guys like Abe Rich and George Balabushka with their wood lathes are gone and their tools and methods are mostly curiosity and history today.
I still call Rolex mass produced and fans don't like that. They didn't even make their own movements until fairly recently, they bought them. Then they bought the movement manufacturer. They are great watches, mainly utilitarian tools at their heart. Dressing them up does not change that but they are commonly blinged out both from the factory and by the aftermarket. If you have an older Rolex, you probably shouldn't send it for factory service, they likely will refuse it, but if they work on it they are likely to destroy the value by replacing things like dial or hands for cosmetic reasons.
So, anyway, yes, the Adam Japan shop is "low volume", but Adam became a multinational cue manufacturing giant, and that is what I was speaking of in general.
Helmstetter got his start making cues in Washington, D.C., but with the help of Gordon Hart. In fact, some of Helmstetter's very early cues had what Gordon called his Super Joint that he used in some Viking cues. The only reason I know this is that I've seen a very early example of this type of Helmstetter cue in a pool room.
That's surprising. As much as that joint is sort of a gimmick, it is iconic of old Viking cues.