I read in the previous posts that pros don't make much money, and I noticed that pool is hardly on TV (and when it is, it's in the early morning). This all boils down to the number of people watching it and therefore sponsorship. Any ideas (aside from having hot cheerleaders work the crowd) to make people watch it more? Is it a collegiate sport (stupid question?)? Are there any celebrities who love pool (the Lakers has Jack Nicholson, the Knicks has Spike Lee) who can draw attention to the sport? Cleaning up the image if necessary and having kids start early like in other sports (make it part of school sports?)? Or is it just the nature of the game and nothing more can be done about it? I don't think so and I hope not.
Any ideas how to make pool more popular and pay more?
- Thread starter Sargo
- Start date
I have a suggestion to make tournaments pay more, you look at most tournament payouts specifically the quarter finalists and beyond and the payout for these positions are pathetic. Only a handful of tournaments each year have reasonable payouts...WPC, US Open, WPM (this year at least).
My suggestion for better tournament payouts is to look at tournaments being sponsored outside the billiard industry, common tourney sponsors are sardo, Brunswick, Predator cues...you get the idea. Problem is that by getting sponsors within the game it's only a matter of time before you run out of sponsors or end up having the same companies sponsoring many tournys which can only limit the amount of $$ they are willing to invest.
Why not look beyond the industry for sponsors, up here we have the Molson Cup which is sponsored by the Molson beer company, Yamaha produces motorcycles and they sponsor tourneys as well. I'm sure we could get big names like Budweiser, or similar big name companies in the US to sponsor tourneys if we went about it the right way, they are always interested in advertising opportunities and if we did get them aboard tourney payouts would surely rise. JMO
I apoligize ahead of time for the lengthy post and lack of grammar skills,
Sniper
My suggestion for better tournament payouts is to look at tournaments being sponsored outside the billiard industry, common tourney sponsors are sardo, Brunswick, Predator cues...you get the idea. Problem is that by getting sponsors within the game it's only a matter of time before you run out of sponsors or end up having the same companies sponsoring many tournys which can only limit the amount of $$ they are willing to invest.
Why not look beyond the industry for sponsors, up here we have the Molson Cup which is sponsored by the Molson beer company, Yamaha produces motorcycles and they sponsor tourneys as well. I'm sure we could get big names like Budweiser, or similar big name companies in the US to sponsor tourneys if we went about it the right way, they are always interested in advertising opportunities and if we did get them aboard tourney payouts would surely rise. JMO
I apoligize ahead of time for the lengthy post and lack of grammar skills,
Sniper
Who are the sponsors going to advertise to? Even the players leave as soon as they are eliminated.
And most people think it is ridiculous to pay to watch them play.
So, yes, I think pool is doomed to exist in a close knit family of players and fans. And I really see nothing in the works that will improve the situation.
Hopefully, John Di Toro, can liven it up and make a go of it. He sure does have the pros that will play for him. Now, can they all work together is another matter.
Jake
And most people think it is ridiculous to pay to watch them play.
So, yes, I think pool is doomed to exist in a close knit family of players and fans. And I really see nothing in the works that will improve the situation.
Hopefully, John Di Toro, can liven it up and make a go of it. He sure does have the pros that will play for him. Now, can they all work together is another matter.
Jake
Sargo said:
the image of pool is so overpowering, i don't think it'll ever break from it. "hustling and pool" have been linked together for a century at least. and now you hear stories about guyz,,,young guyz, beating up on people they think were hustling them. it seems everyone , young and old, is taking "the hustler" to heart, and life is imitating art,,,or is it the other way around.
add to that the fact that you will never get the players on the same page. so you have a catch-22,,,moneyed sponsors will ask what package pool brings to the table and what demographic pool speaks to. men's pool doesn't have a package to offer, and a demographic no one cares about.
S
Sputnik
Guest
In the Philippines, where you find the meanest, sleeziest hustlers around, we have relatively good out-of-industry sponsors - car battery, beer, TV, etc.
This is because of the role Efren and Busta have played. Efren helps people in his hometown. He is humble and simple, and he is exposed in TV interviews and features. Puyat Sports packaged him and Busta well and understood their investment for having a tight grip on the sport here, and recently, in regional Asia. BCA or UPA should do the same. Invest in TV spots to promote the game.
But I think there is one factor why there is a lack of out-of-industry sponsorship. I think that as long as gaming companies are involved in the tournament, other prestigious companies will not compliment the event.
This is because of the role Efren and Busta have played. Efren helps people in his hometown. He is humble and simple, and he is exposed in TV interviews and features. Puyat Sports packaged him and Busta well and understood their investment for having a tight grip on the sport here, and recently, in regional Asia. BCA or UPA should do the same. Invest in TV spots to promote the game.
But I think there is one factor why there is a lack of out-of-industry sponsorship. I think that as long as gaming companies are involved in the tournament, other prestigious companies will not compliment the event.
L
locki
Guest
well, for people like me who want to elevate the sport of pool, i really dont play for money, i just play it for fun and as a showcase of my pocketing skills. whenever someone *hustlers and gamblers* watch me play with my friends, and eventually asking me to play...err...gamble on pool, i simply tell them, i play for fun, not for money. if im in the mood and i feel i can take on anyone, i would also add, if you wanna play me, go to a tournament and climb your way to the finals to play me there....hehehe...
this is the main thing why most people take pool as a lowly sport, its because of this gamblers and hustlers.
this is the main thing why most people take pool as a lowly sport, its because of this gamblers and hustlers.
A
AzBlueMach1
Guest
Locki - interesting perspective.
1.) You havn't beaten me until you have taken my money. Nobody gets my a game for funsies.
2.) Don't the snooker tournaments in the UK pay like 500k? Wha do they do different?
1.) You havn't beaten me until you have taken my money. Nobody gets my a game for funsies.
2.) Don't the snooker tournaments in the UK pay like 500k? Wha do they do different?
L
locki
Guest
i think its because pool came from england? and they do love the sport? correct me if im wrong though.
One thing made snooker rich: tobacco advertising. It ain't there anymore, therefore the money and events have dried up.
All pool needs to attract big business is organisation. Gte a bunch of promoters together to do a 'proper' tour. Have an agreed upon set of rules for this tour. Make a nice promo pack for it. Hire a publicity firm to sort out advertising. The maybe some progress will be made.
All pool needs to attract big business is organisation. Gte a bunch of promoters together to do a 'proper' tour. Have an agreed upon set of rules for this tour. Make a nice promo pack for it. Hire a publicity firm to sort out advertising. The maybe some progress will be made.
jjinfla said:
The people watching the event at the venue as well as on T.V.
This would obviously only apply to the big name events that are televised. If we made it happen up here I'm sure it's possible down in the US where most of the tournaments are held. Johnny Archer has won about $23,000 (american) up here and we barely have any tournaments, the financial reward for the players is impressive when out of industry sponsors become involved.
As for players leaving events as soon as they are eliminated this is true for the most part, but at the WPC I saw lot's of players that stuck around for the finals, I also heard from a friend who attended this year's WPM in Holland that many players also stuck around to see the final there as well.
D
Double D
Guest
payouts?
For what it is worth.....
The Walmart FLW fishing tour has tournaments where the winner wins like 700k give or take some.
For what it is worth.....
The Walmart FLW fishing tour has tournaments where the winner wins like 700k give or take some.
About a dozen or so years ago, prior to the start of football season, I was watching a sports show who had on a person who was in the know of costs in producing football. He stunned everyone by saying that before any stadium ticket is sold enough money is taken in from TV contracts to pay every player twice.
So yes, you need the TV coverage to generate money to pay the pros. The problem is that TV will not cover pool unless they believe that there will be the viewers to justify it. TV is a business, not a benevolent society. They televise what they believe will enrich themselves.
The last couple days ESPN showed three really good matches. Vivian Villarreal vs Jeanette Lee; Francisco Bustemante vs Efren Reyes and Francisco Bustamante vs John Horsfall. Every match was excellent. If they keep coming with matches like those then pool might be successful on TV. If it is successful then good things will come to the Pros.
But of course the Pros have to get their act together and start working for a common goal. That is, to have more televised events. And nonsense like what has transpired between the UPA and the US Open, and other tournaments has to stop.
Can you imagine if 300 Pros showed up for the US Open? The TV crews would be forced to cover the event. The mayor of Chesepeake would have ensured that the TV crews were there because it would be great for his City. Instead, the pros acted like stupid kids and badmouthed the event every chance they could.
TV coverage means that the players who now struggle to make $100,000 a year would be making a million a year. And the players who make $10,000 a year would be making $100,000 a year. That alone should be incentive to promote pool. Every Pro player should be an ambassador for the game and promote EVERY tournament out there. And when there is a major tournament all the big boys should show up. Then and only then will pool rise to the level of Billiards and have some respect.
Jake
So yes, you need the TV coverage to generate money to pay the pros. The problem is that TV will not cover pool unless they believe that there will be the viewers to justify it. TV is a business, not a benevolent society. They televise what they believe will enrich themselves.
The last couple days ESPN showed three really good matches. Vivian Villarreal vs Jeanette Lee; Francisco Bustemante vs Efren Reyes and Francisco Bustamante vs John Horsfall. Every match was excellent. If they keep coming with matches like those then pool might be successful on TV. If it is successful then good things will come to the Pros.
But of course the Pros have to get their act together and start working for a common goal. That is, to have more televised events. And nonsense like what has transpired between the UPA and the US Open, and other tournaments has to stop.
Can you imagine if 300 Pros showed up for the US Open? The TV crews would be forced to cover the event. The mayor of Chesepeake would have ensured that the TV crews were there because it would be great for his City. Instead, the pros acted like stupid kids and badmouthed the event every chance they could.
TV coverage means that the players who now struggle to make $100,000 a year would be making a million a year. And the players who make $10,000 a year would be making $100,000 a year. That alone should be incentive to promote pool. Every Pro player should be an ambassador for the game and promote EVERY tournament out there. And when there is a major tournament all the big boys should show up. Then and only then will pool rise to the level of Billiards and have some respect.
Jake
One of the advantages of the English Snooker tour...many of the players live in or near London! There are very few travel expenses.
1) In our good old USA, the costs and distances are quite a lot. 2) Over 25 years ago, a businessman went out and found sponsors outside of the Snooker world to get involved.
3) The Snooker players handle themselves in a professional manner at all times (they do subscribe to a code of conduct with loss of money and other penalties) ...very few bad mouth their own organisation and realize that if they are the champion of a bunch of bums ... what are they the champion of?
We do need to get a proper organisation that thinks of the promotion of the game , not just their own personal pockets.
The next new organisation needs to go out and get a good salesman, who can receive a good commision for the monies he gets for the TOUR! (If he is really good there will be lotsa $$) This does not need to be an active pool player...it needs to be a professional salesperson "who may like or love the game of pool".
Starting regional or local tournaments with a paid entry into the next level of tourney might be a good way to cover the traveling expences and get more players in the field.
1) In our good old USA, the costs and distances are quite a lot. 2) Over 25 years ago, a businessman went out and found sponsors outside of the Snooker world to get involved.
3) The Snooker players handle themselves in a professional manner at all times (they do subscribe to a code of conduct with loss of money and other penalties) ...very few bad mouth their own organisation and realize that if they are the champion of a bunch of bums ... what are they the champion of?
We do need to get a proper organisation that thinks of the promotion of the game , not just their own personal pockets.
The next new organisation needs to go out and get a good salesman, who can receive a good commision for the monies he gets for the TOUR! (If he is really good there will be lotsa $$) This does not need to be an active pool player...it needs to be a professional salesperson "who may like or love the game of pool".
Starting regional or local tournaments with a paid entry into the next level of tourney might be a good way to cover the traveling expences and get more players in the field.
Good posts Jake and ajrack. I would add, to help illuminate your posts, that first someone has to sponsor an event if it is going to happen because money makes the world go around. No one is going to do that if the odds are pretty good that they will not make very much money for their investment of money and time. I believe this is the primary problem.
Ajrack, you talked about the image problem of many of our players in this country. I think you are dead on. A lot of the posters here talk about how great some of our more controversial players are for the game. They say that when Earl plays, everyone wants to watch him. When they say everyone, they're talking about 15 or 20 people in a crowd of 50 people if you're lucky! So we're going to build this game up on players like these? Some of you people that think Earl and guys like him are the class of this game are very wrong imho.
I believe we need a very strict code of conduct; a strict enforcement of that code and; some great players that anyone would feel good about emulating. Most fans of any sport want someone they can respect and even adore. Advertisers know that, look what happens when sports celebrities fall off the pedestal like Kobe. The sponsors start jumping off of them like fleas that just found a better host.
Ajrack, you talked about the image problem of many of our players in this country. I think you are dead on. A lot of the posters here talk about how great some of our more controversial players are for the game. They say that when Earl plays, everyone wants to watch him. When they say everyone, they're talking about 15 or 20 people in a crowd of 50 people if you're lucky! So we're going to build this game up on players like these? Some of you people that think Earl and guys like him are the class of this game are very wrong imho.
I believe we need a very strict code of conduct; a strict enforcement of that code and; some great players that anyone would feel good about emulating. Most fans of any sport want someone they can respect and even adore. Advertisers know that, look what happens when sports celebrities fall off the pedestal like Kobe. The sponsors start jumping off of them like fleas that just found a better host.
What a great thread, and some of the posts are incredibly accurate (IMO), especially Jake's and AJRack's.
RickW represents one side of the coin on the "image of pool" problem, and then there exists a strongly held opinion that pool needs to be entertaining enough to bring in outside sponsors, spectators, TV viewers, and the like. The pool purists want it one way, like RickW who posts, "They say that when Earl plays, everyone wants to watch him. When they say everyone, they're talking about 15 or 20 people in a crowd of 50 people if you're lucky! So we're going to build this game up on players like these? Some of you people that think Earl and guys like him are the class of this game are very wrong imho."
The lack of spectators is the problem; thus, "15 or 20 people in a crowd of 50 people." "Earl and guys like him" has nothing to do with the popularity of pool. Ninety-nine percent of the world does not even know who Earl Strickland is, nor Johnny Archer, Nick Varner, Efren Reyes, and Buddy Hall.
I think one aspect of this problem boils down to the question of: Is it possible for pool to be a spectator sport, like baseball, football, and basketball, or should it be more like viewing a chess game? The more spectators, the better chance outside sponsors will jump in and get involved. They want to get a return on their investment. The game needs to be alluring to attract another public.
Charlie Williams has been quoted as saying more audience involvement at tournaments would be beneficial to the pool industry as a whole.
When a football player raises his hands in the air for the spectators to get loud and rowdy, is this a shark maneuver towards the opponent team?
When Sammy Sosa comes up to bat, imagine the crowd being baseball purists, sitting quietly in the bleachers, never uttering a sound because they want to enjoy the strategies executed by the players in silence.
Personally, I don't know what the answer is and would look forward to hearing some more opinions on both sides of the coin. An answer to this ongoing dilemma is crucial in order for the sport to advance to a higher level. With some positive back-and-forth dialogue on both sides of the coin, we may be able to come up with the right prognosis and advance to a higher plateau.
ManlyShot
RickW represents one side of the coin on the "image of pool" problem, and then there exists a strongly held opinion that pool needs to be entertaining enough to bring in outside sponsors, spectators, TV viewers, and the like. The pool purists want it one way, like RickW who posts, "They say that when Earl plays, everyone wants to watch him. When they say everyone, they're talking about 15 or 20 people in a crowd of 50 people if you're lucky! So we're going to build this game up on players like these? Some of you people that think Earl and guys like him are the class of this game are very wrong imho."
The lack of spectators is the problem; thus, "15 or 20 people in a crowd of 50 people." "Earl and guys like him" has nothing to do with the popularity of pool. Ninety-nine percent of the world does not even know who Earl Strickland is, nor Johnny Archer, Nick Varner, Efren Reyes, and Buddy Hall.
I think one aspect of this problem boils down to the question of: Is it possible for pool to be a spectator sport, like baseball, football, and basketball, or should it be more like viewing a chess game? The more spectators, the better chance outside sponsors will jump in and get involved. They want to get a return on their investment. The game needs to be alluring to attract another public.
Charlie Williams has been quoted as saying more audience involvement at tournaments would be beneficial to the pool industry as a whole.
When a football player raises his hands in the air for the spectators to get loud and rowdy, is this a shark maneuver towards the opponent team?
When Sammy Sosa comes up to bat, imagine the crowd being baseball purists, sitting quietly in the bleachers, never uttering a sound because they want to enjoy the strategies executed by the players in silence.
Personally, I don't know what the answer is and would look forward to hearing some more opinions on both sides of the coin. An answer to this ongoing dilemma is crucial in order for the sport to advance to a higher level. With some positive back-and-forth dialogue on both sides of the coin, we may be able to come up with the right prognosis and advance to a higher plateau.
ManlyShot
L
locki
Guest
i think pool should be more like viewing a chess game...because you only enjoy watching it if you understand and a serious pool player, i mean, like when you are watching on tv, you watch attentively and interactively, like while the player is thinking of what to do, you also think of what you would do...just like in watching a chess match.
How did fishing become so popular on TV?
They have big paying tournaments, with plenty of sponsors, and on TV all you see is two or three guys in a boat fishing.
Of course they do have a lot more products that they can sell. Bass boats by the dozens, rods, reels, lures, life vests, clothes, food and drinks, vacations, etc.
Jake---almost got himself shot when he accidently pulled up someone's bass trap while fishing for catfish. People will do anything to win those tagged bass tourneys.
They have big paying tournaments, with plenty of sponsors, and on TV all you see is two or three guys in a boat fishing.
Of course they do have a lot more products that they can sell. Bass boats by the dozens, rods, reels, lures, life vests, clothes, food and drinks, vacations, etc.
Jake---almost got himself shot when he accidently pulled up someone's bass trap while fishing for catfish. People will do anything to win those tagged bass tourneys.
Maybe they could be like pro wrestling & trash
talk, do nasty interviews, have obnoxious
managers, cue girls, etc. Have the champion
take on various challengers,make it nationalistic.
When Earl plays Efren the crowd could yell
USA, USA. We could have a frenchman who
refuses to participate, thus inciting the indignant
patriotic crowd. We could have Canadians
talking about the inferior American players.
Fox network, of course. Plus, our lady players
could dress a little (lot) skimpier.
talk, do nasty interviews, have obnoxious
managers, cue girls, etc. Have the champion
take on various challengers,make it nationalistic.
When Earl plays Efren the crowd could yell
USA, USA. We could have a frenchman who
refuses to participate, thus inciting the indignant
patriotic crowd. We could have Canadians
talking about the inferior American players.
Fox network, of course. Plus, our lady players
could dress a little (lot) skimpier.
There are many problems facing pool today. The biggest is that the general public simply doesn't care about the game. Ask a casual ESPN viewer what they know about pool and you'll hear about "that hot Chinese chick" (Jeanette Lee isn't Chinese) or "wasn't Minnesota Fats the greatest player of all time?" (No, Fats never even played for a world championship). Even though stats show millions of people are casual players, and the APA boasts memberships in the 6 figure range, pool simply doesn't have a following like the major sports. The root of the problem is multi-faceted: pool has a "dirty" image (thank mainstream movies for a lot of that continued misconception), and corporate sponsors outside of industry leaders don't want anything to do with pool. Until something is done about these things, pool will always toil in obscurity, and pros will always struggle to make a living.
Solving this problem is a "chicken or the egg" type dilemma. Pool needs TV to generate interest and higher payouts, while TV needs pool to increase its popularity before it will be willing to show more pool. Which comes first? In Asia, San Miguel (a beer company, among other things) has stepped up to sponsor a tour. American pool needs a non-billiards industry sponsor to do the same. Camel did a good job while they sponsored their tour, but, just as snooker is finding out, tobacco sponsorship is a bad idea. It can't be shown on TV here, which was a huge factor in why the CPBT failed. Wouldn't it be nice to have Nabisco or Budweiser sponsor a tour, like San Miguel has done? Unfortunately, until pool can get its politics in order, nobody wants to crawl out on that limb. Pool cannot demonstrate a viable product to potential sponsors right now, not until a governing body is in place to represent the sport. I don't know if that will ever happen, given the resistance the UPA is facing now, and other organizations like it have faced in the past.
To me, I think there's a misconception about what needs to be sold to potential sponsors. Most people think it's pool itself. Not true. Look at the WPBA. Do you think non-players watch those ESPN matches because it's pool? I don't. I think people watch in the hopes of seeing good-looking women play. That tells me it ain't the game which needs representation to the sponsors, it's the players. I've said this before, but golf has made huge strides for one reason: Tiger Woods. Pool needs the same thing, a character to raise the level of awareness of the game, while at the same time promoting excellence and integrity. So I think it's the players which should be used to sell to sponsors, not the game itself. Everybody knows what pool is, but has everybody been treated to a match like Alex and Keith at this year's US Open? Has everybody seen Earl melt down? It's the players making those matches entertaining to watch; the pool is actually secondary. The best way to increase the popularity of pool is to increase the popularity of the players. Tiger Woods's popularity shot through the roof, and as a result, the popularity of golf has risen. Who among the current crop of pool pros is capable of producing just 1/4 of what Tiger has done for golf?
Once these problems can be resolved, we may finally see some good things happen in pool. On the UK snooker circuit, players don't pay their own way to tournaments. They get an entry, hotel, travel, etc. Major leaguers aren't paying their own hotel bills, the team gets it. Tennis players aren't paying entry fees, you have to be qualified to enter a tournament. Pool needs an organization with the power and money to do these things, too, while at the same time protecting the interest of players. A separate organization can protect the interest of promoters (see NFLPA, MLBPA, and owner's associations). Most other sports have some type of pension plan, and insurance plans for their players. Pool needs that organization.
I think there should be a 3 step plan to increasing pool's popularity:
1) Create an organization which will be the governing body of pool (this is necessary for Olympic consideration also)
2) Gain corporate sponsorship by selling the players, not the game
3) Use that corporate sponsorship as leverage to get more TV time and exposure
Just my two cents on the topic.
-djb
Solving this problem is a "chicken or the egg" type dilemma. Pool needs TV to generate interest and higher payouts, while TV needs pool to increase its popularity before it will be willing to show more pool. Which comes first? In Asia, San Miguel (a beer company, among other things) has stepped up to sponsor a tour. American pool needs a non-billiards industry sponsor to do the same. Camel did a good job while they sponsored their tour, but, just as snooker is finding out, tobacco sponsorship is a bad idea. It can't be shown on TV here, which was a huge factor in why the CPBT failed. Wouldn't it be nice to have Nabisco or Budweiser sponsor a tour, like San Miguel has done? Unfortunately, until pool can get its politics in order, nobody wants to crawl out on that limb. Pool cannot demonstrate a viable product to potential sponsors right now, not until a governing body is in place to represent the sport. I don't know if that will ever happen, given the resistance the UPA is facing now, and other organizations like it have faced in the past.
To me, I think there's a misconception about what needs to be sold to potential sponsors. Most people think it's pool itself. Not true. Look at the WPBA. Do you think non-players watch those ESPN matches because it's pool? I don't. I think people watch in the hopes of seeing good-looking women play. That tells me it ain't the game which needs representation to the sponsors, it's the players. I've said this before, but golf has made huge strides for one reason: Tiger Woods. Pool needs the same thing, a character to raise the level of awareness of the game, while at the same time promoting excellence and integrity. So I think it's the players which should be used to sell to sponsors, not the game itself. Everybody knows what pool is, but has everybody been treated to a match like Alex and Keith at this year's US Open? Has everybody seen Earl melt down? It's the players making those matches entertaining to watch; the pool is actually secondary. The best way to increase the popularity of pool is to increase the popularity of the players. Tiger Woods's popularity shot through the roof, and as a result, the popularity of golf has risen. Who among the current crop of pool pros is capable of producing just 1/4 of what Tiger has done for golf?
Once these problems can be resolved, we may finally see some good things happen in pool. On the UK snooker circuit, players don't pay their own way to tournaments. They get an entry, hotel, travel, etc. Major leaguers aren't paying their own hotel bills, the team gets it. Tennis players aren't paying entry fees, you have to be qualified to enter a tournament. Pool needs an organization with the power and money to do these things, too, while at the same time protecting the interest of players. A separate organization can protect the interest of promoters (see NFLPA, MLBPA, and owner's associations). Most other sports have some type of pension plan, and insurance plans for their players. Pool needs that organization.
I think there should be a 3 step plan to increasing pool's popularity:
1) Create an organization which will be the governing body of pool (this is necessary for Olympic consideration also)
2) Gain corporate sponsorship by selling the players, not the game
3) Use that corporate sponsorship as leverage to get more TV time and exposure
Just my two cents on the topic.
-djb
I watch pool on TV not only because I find it entertaining but I believe I can learn by watching the play and listening to the commentators. But I did find (recently) Vivian Villareal versus Jeanette Lee more fun to watch because they worked the crowd. I thought Karen Corr vs. Allison Fisher could have been more entertaining. The guys usually are quiet but I am sure they can trash talk or work the crowd just as well if it was thought to be ok and within certain rules.
For the other problems of the sport you guys have eloquently elaborated on, thought I'd post this link, an interview with Allen Hopkins. Don't know much about the personalities of the sport and its politics but thought what he said was interesting.
http://portlandpoolpage.bizland.com/0803hopkins.html
For the other problems of the sport you guys have eloquently elaborated on, thought I'd post this link, an interview with Allen Hopkins. Don't know much about the personalities of the sport and its politics but thought what he said was interesting.
http://portlandpoolpage.bizland.com/0803hopkins.html