APA team championships question about defensive shot

davidhop

davidhop

Grade A choke master
Silver Member
I have a question concerning the upcoming Las Vegas 8-ball team Championships. I have been looking at the APA website and I keep noticing what it says about getting disqualified for sandbagging.
What do they consider a two way shot as, defensive or offensive? I have never been to Vegas, so I am sort of worried about this rule.
I mean, what if during regular league play, you come up with a shot that is very tough. You know what you would do if you were in a tournament (PLAY SAFE), but maybe you just want to go for the ball since the outcome really does not matter. Is this sandbagging?
The reason that I need to know this is because I am the coach for the team, and I have told the players to do this from time to time. I wasn't trying to get their ranks down, but.....if the shot is makeable, I don't think that it should be held against you. Sometimes, missing a ball is the best thing that you can do.
 
I'm also going to be at the Nationals for the first time in August. A defensive shot means no ATTEMPT to make a ball. However, it is not black and white and is open to interpretation. In 8-ball especially you don't make balls that are open if your others are tied up, so defensive plays are the smart thing to do.

Also, remember you are still marked for a defensive shot if you are snookered and make no attempt to make the ball.
 
davidhop said:
I have a question concerning the upcoming Las Vegas 8-ball team Championships. I have been looking at the APA website and I keep noticing what it says about getting disqualified for sandbagging.
What do they consider a two way shot as, defensive or offensive? I have never been to Vegas, so I am sort of worried about this rule.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry about it, David.

The league's idea of sandbagging is deliberately running up innings to pad your total match innings, and in turn keep your skill level down. One or two 'two way' shots isn't what they are on the look out for.

So forget about it, go out there and have fun! It's a great time, I wish I was going out there this year. Maybe next.
 
davidhop said:
I have a question concerning the upcoming Las Vegas 8-ball team Championships. I have been looking at the APA website and I keep noticing what it says about getting disqualified for sandbagging.
What do they consider a two way shot as, defensive or offensive? I have never been to Vegas, so I am sort of worried about this rule.
I mean, what if during regular league play, you come up with a shot that is very tough. You know what you would do if you were in a tournament (PLAY SAFE), but maybe you just want to go for the ball since the outcome really does not matter. Is this sandbagging?
The reason that I need to know this is because I am the coach for the team, and I have told the players to do this from time to time. I wasn't trying to get their ranks down, but.....if the shot is makeable, I don't think that it should be held against you. Sometimes, missing a ball is the best thing that you can do.
Click to expand...


I've been to Las Vegas a couples times for the APA and they're more concerned that defensive shots are getting marked at all as opposed to properly catagorizing two-way shots. In regards to your question, it really depends on what is preceived to be the favored course of action. Eight-ball has PLENTY of two-way shots where a player can attempt to pocket a ball without allowing his opponent a legitimate chance to get out. If the player's intent was to pocket the ball, a defensive shot should not be marked.

The real issue is when there is no chance a ball would be pocketed should a defensive shot be marked. In instances where a player is attempting to make a legal hit, if there were absolutely no chance that an object-ball would drop, it must be marked as defensive, even if there was no attempt to leave the cue-ball safe.

If you come off as honest (and I know you will), you won't have a problem. You'll see when you get there. There are teams there to have fun, teams there to try to win and uber-serious teams that will try to win at all costs. If you fall somewhere between the first two, I think you're walking in with the healthiest perspective. If you go with the intent on having fun, you will. If you go with the sole intent of winning, you will likely be disappointed. It's 500-1 to win and you know nobody. Each match is as good as a coin-toss.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
It's 500-1 to win and you know nobody. Each match is as good as a coin-toss.
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YES We have a chance. I will let my team know that we have a
shot at it. :p
At 500-1 I would place a $10 or $20 down that my team would win it. Not that I think we are supposed to win or have a super strong team but I like the odds just in case. Our team is going in with the thought of playing
hard and giving it our all BUT having fun. Winning and getting to Vegas for
Nationals should be a reward as well.
How did your teams do when they made it out?

This will be my first time playing in the nationals but I have been for nationals
3 times. I will also be playing in the Triple Play event. The Triple Play team I
was on last year placed 5th with a real possibilty of being higher. I hope this year we can continue to do well in it and get better than 5th.
 
Hey, you never know what can happen out there. I've been there twice ('98 & '01).

In '98, my team wasn't really stocked with alot of serious pool players and it showed. We won a couple matches, but were out by Wednesday morning. Too much drinking and not enough sleep didn't do much for our games. But we did have a good time.

In '01, I was fortunate to be the Captain of a really good bunch of people. They all came to play, but weren't cutthroat about it. Honestly, we weren't even the best team on the plane from our area. We were hoping to do well, but making it to the middle of the week seemed more realistic. Well, we came back from 0-2 to win our first match and just kept on winning. It seemed that every time we needed a win, someone different stepped up. The best part for me as a captain was that all 8 players got to play and they all got at least one win. I played out of my mind (7-0 as a SL6) and won a couple big matches for us. In the end, we made it to the semi's losing 3-1 to the eventual champions. It was an unbelievable week and the most fun I've ever had playing team pool. 3rd place out of 540+ teams...I still have trouble believing we did it.

Oh yeah, I got engaged that week too. :)
 
frankncali said:
YES We have a chance. I will let my team know that we have a
shot at it. :p
At 500-1 I would place a $10 or $20 down that my team would win it. Not that I think we are supposed to win or have a super strong team but I like the odds just in case. Our team is going in with the thought of playing
hard and giving it our all BUT having fun. Winning and getting to Vegas for
Nationals should be a reward as well.
How did your teams do when they made it out?

This will be my first time playing in the nationals but I have been for nationals
3 times. I will also be playing in the Triple Play event. The Triple Play team I
was on last year placed 5th with a real possibilty of being higher. I hope this year we can continue to do well in it and get better than 5th.
Click to expand...


There are 500 some-odd teams in the field. I'm not taking bets, I'm simply stating facts. You can walk in with any attitude you want. I'm simply saying that you should be prepared to enjoy your free time out there. If there is one place I don't mind doing poorly in a tournament, it's Vegas. The last time I played, it was BCA team and we took 7th out of 800. Previous times, I went for individuals and took 33rd and 81st. Every time I go, I have a blast.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have a winning attitude. Keep it. I'm simply saying that you should remember how much fun you can have out there when you happen to get some free time. For 25% of the field, that free time comes after two matches.
 
The main reason that I was worried about this to begin with is that we have some "borderline" players on the team. It wouldn't take much to make a couple of our 3's into 4's. I think that the rules say that if two players from the same team go up a skill level, then the entire team is disqualified. That is why I was worried.
 
If you have guys that you know are a number low and you have the room mathematically, tell the TD before you start that you want to move them. I know it's rare, but it does happen. I was fortunate that the only player I had moved was my wife (2 to a 3). Heading out there, my local LO told me she was right on the line, but I didn't think she could play as a 3 and left her alone. She lost her first one out there, but they moved her up after she won her next match.

If you're comfortable doing that, it will save you headaches with numbers if you manage to progress through the brackets.

As to the DQ thing, I think that 3 players is automatic. 2 players may get you a "hearing" in front of the Review Committee. I had friends that went through that. They managed to talk their way back into the tournament, but got knocked out right away by a team that had more screwed up numbers than they did.

Unless you feel that your 3's are really out of line, I wouldn't worry about it.
 
You really don't need to worry about going up two skill levels. If everyone is honest there's not a problem. If you have a 3 that is almost a 4 they know that. If one decent match moves up some players, they know that. The people up there really aren't stupid or cruel. Any team in question will have a League operator from an area that is not that of the teams watching matches.

Kinda funny story.

I was there for 9 ball last year. Our 3 drilled another three in a match. The other team complained. We when the set. The next match we play our girl has a "W" next to her name. (That means a player has a watch on them.) An operator came and watched her match. She played a 4. (The "Watchers" don't know what player they are watching, just that they are watching the match between those two players.)
He Showed his report to myself and another teammate where he stated that his "Suggested skill rating for our player was a 2 medium/2+, and the other player was a 6+/7-. Needless to say that 4 went to a 6 in there next match. We lost the set. (Fun team did a lot of drinking with them that weekend.)

The watchers also don't know what the skill rating of the players before they play.

To sum it up the APA officials are fair up there. That team didn't get kicked out and one player went up 2 levels, and another went up one in the set against us. Moving them up 3. They take pretty good control of the tourney and seemed to be fair to everyone.

That guy that moved up told us that back home he drills everyone as a 4 and never moved up. He thought he should be higher, and didn't understand why he wasn't. I can't hate on a guy who's honest.

Mike
 
Is the APA just trying to scare me by posting that stuff on their web-site? I was just going by what I read on the site, but I am sure glad to hear that they are not so bad after all. I just want to be able to have a good time without worrying about everything.
 
davidhop said:
Is the APA just trying to scare me by posting that stuff on their web-site? I was just going by what I read on the site, but I am sure glad to hear that they are not so bad after all. I just want to be able to have a good time without worrying about everything.
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They do try to scare you to some extent, but it's not all cheap talk -- they have disqualified and will disqualify teams. At the same time, they're aware that for a team to get deep into the tournament, some players will have to have hot streaks.

Another factor to consider is that handicaps are fractional. So if you have a marginal 3 (say a 3.9) who barely goes up to a 5 (5.0) then that will definitely get you watched closely, but I don't think it automatically triggers disqualification.

Also, last time I checked, they say they will almost surely disqualify a team that either (A) has one player go up 2 levels or (2) has their full roster go up 4 levels.

Note that because of the fractional handicaps, I think a team can be disqualified without having four players moved to a higher handicap (e.g., if one player goes up 1.5 ranking points and four players go up .7 points).

If you're really worried and you have several players on the border of going up, you could voluntarily raise the best one. If you have a 3 that can follow, draw, and run 3-4 balls on an open table somewhat regularly, then that would be the one to raise. Especially if he or she can play safe.

Cory
 
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