Are professionals supposed to call fouls on themselves?

JazzyJeff87

AzB Plutonium Member
Silver Member
What?

Have you ever watched pool? Pool players call fouls on themselves all the time. Well not all the time but every time they foul and no one sees it (for the most part). I’ve seen it in plenty pro matches and out playing myself.

If there are no official rules about a situation, it can’t be cheating one way or another. All you can do is follow your inner way or the popular way at the time which is what tinman was saying.
 

HueblerHustler7

AndrewActionG
Silver Member
I think if they notice they foul 9-10 they are walking back to their seat for respect to the game and who ever they are playing, I'm by no means a professional and I will do this just as a ( Pool Player ) If it's an honest mistake such as missing a shot clock timing or call or simply didn't see a close call thats why there is a reff. watching from different angles and ready to call a bad hit/ foul.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
There isn’t an inherent dishonesty there though. If there is no rule saying you must inform your opponent then you haven’t been dishonest by not speaking up.

If they ask and you lied that’s one thing but keeping quiet is different. My mama taught me that early. Don’t lie, but don’t tell on yourself either.
Hair splitting to suit an argument. Is there a rule that says a referee must inform an incoming player that a foul has been committed..? We all know it's the referee's job to do so, but is there a rule..? If there's no rule, then the ref could simply choose not to, and no one should complain right..?

Ya you're right the above argument is ridiculous, if not down right stupid. However if we're going to jump head first down the rabbit hole of "there is no rule" then we may as well take the gloves off....lol
 

JazzyJeff87

AzB Plutonium Member
Silver Member
- what’s the problem officer?

- did you get out of your car and do 6 jumping jacks at that stop sign?

- ...no

- You deceitful piece of garbage! Hands up!!!

-but there’s no rule that says I have to do jumping jacks at a stop sign

- don’t split hairs with me fgt! Pow pow 💥

- 😵
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
It seems this is too big a leap to make for many but let's try. What if one of the rules was that the opponent had to play the role of a referee and it was their responsibility to call foul? Then what rule are we breaking by not doing their job?

This whole thread is fascinating to me. People seem to have such a deep down profound assertion that the game 'ought' to be played a certain way it's hard to talk about hypothetical alternatives.
Hey no problem, I can play the hypothetical game.

If you enter a contest wherein the rules laid forth include that your opponent must act as a referee, and fouls can only be called by a referee, then the fouling player can not be condemned for not calling a foul on oneself.

Much like I commented earlier. If you would like rules omitted, and/or tweak the game so the onus to call a foul is the responisbility of the opponent then we don't have to discuss this any further. We agree that in this instance the fouling player techincally has done nothing wrong and has not been dishonest.

That said, speaking for solely myself here. If I had fouled, regardless of the rules, I would reward my opponent whatever the penalty for a foul would be. I also would not judge harshly if this was not reciprocated. <<--appologies for the double negative
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
There has been cheating in snooker and probably even in 3 cushion, but at least it's not integrated into the games. Plenty of times people have called invisible fouls on themselves, in snooker, on tv, in significant matches. I just don't see that happening in pool, ever. You all can enjoy and revel in that fact, but it makes me sad.
(y)
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
- what’s the problem officer?

- did you get out of your car and do 6 jumping jacks at that stop sign?

- ...no

- You deceitful piece of garbage! Hands up!!!

-but there’s no rule that says I have to do jumping jacks at a stop sign

- don’t split hairs with me fgt! Pow pow 💥

- 😵
lol... That makes zero sense. Good Job...
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
It irritates me when people think there is something intrinsically good or bad about this subject. This is all about social norms.

To this day many old school players cling to the norms they grew up in. This isn't about a lack of integrity so much as a product of their environment.

So it's not good or bad to call fouls on oneself innately. It is all about how well the players stay in line with what most of the other players are doing. If you personally prefer a culture where we all call fouls on ourselves then that is fine, that's your preference. But it isn't 'Good'. It's just a preference. And it is definitely the norm right now so I will follow suit because that's what's expected. If the day came when it changed back then I'd be a fool to die on the hill and call fouls on myself if no one else did. It wouldn't make me 'Bad' for going along with the way the game was played by everyone else, it would make me normal.
There is some truth to what you say but you have way oversimplified things and are forgetting some important factors in my opinion. You essentially say that you believe right and wrong should be based on the behaviors/actions that people commonly accept. I don't think that is correct. I think between the two, right and wrong should be based more on the common belief about those behaviors in people's hearts, rather than whether the behavior is commonly accepted.

That is a very important distinction if you take a moment to give it some thought. It is pretty common for societies to accept things which they fully believe or know in their hearts to be wrong, but for one reason or another they accept the behavior anyway (because it benefits them, because it is easier to just go with the flow, because it is easier to let XYZ slide, etc). We could all come up with an unlimited amount of examples of this at any point in history including a ton occurring right now as we speak.

I think you have to go more by what most decent people would commonly believe to be wrong and right in their hearts, rather than the actions they have decided to accept. Even more importantly than that, I think you have to go by what you believe to be right, regardless of whether it is accepted as a societal norm or not, and even regardless of whether most others agree in their hearts or not if you have certainty in yours. The truth is, if we allow ourselves to be really honest with ourselves (which is the incredibly hard part to do), most of us are actually pretty good at figuring out what is really right and wrong regardless of what others happen to be doing, even if it is the majority of them.

So the question should at least be, does most of society really actually believe in their hearts that this is right, or are they just accepting it for some reason even though they know it is not good? Even better, the question should be, do I really believe in my heart that this is right, or am I just trying to find a way to justify it because it benefits me or because there are others who are accepting this behavior/action? Let the answer to that question/s guide your actions more than what other people does guides it.
 
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Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hey JV and Pool playa, some very good responses.

JV, we're on the same page. I also agree with you that in today's actual (not hypothetical) world, the social standard is definitely that we ought to call foul on ourselves. For that reason I do so, and I applaud others that do the same. Where I grew up in the 90s this wasn't the case, I was taught to never call foul on myself and no one else did either, but since 2000 or so I've adapted to the global standard instead of what was maybe just my local area, or a different time.

Pool playa, you bring up a great conversation. I think right and wrong are up to our society, but you're right there are larger patterns we follow and hopefully we continue to evolve to higher and higher standards. Clearly we've made a lot of great strides. Yet I think that when our generation is viewed in the rear view mirror we will be found lacking. Maybe in 100 years we are all vegetarian and we find it horrible that we used to breed animals for slaughter when we had viable alternatives. Maybe we have brought the entire world out of poverty and we can't believe we used to use phones made by third world countries with unlivable conditions. So it's not that we don't know right and wrong, but you're right that there are speed bumps that make progress slower than we'd like it.

I feel calling fouls on ourselves is an example. So is taking a break on your own inning (so people don't intentionally or unintentionally shark their opponent), not making concessions, etc. This seems to be a progression that feels right to most people.

There are other times when things aren't as clear. If someone used beta blockers in a world championship that might be considered a disqualification and they would be looked down upon for cheating. But if that same player drinks coffee then we think nothing of it. What's the difference? We can talk degree, but it's all about social norms.

The reason it may not always be as clear is because sometimes there are unforseen consequences. For example, one nice thing about 'don't call fouls on yourself' was that it was FAIR. In other words, honest and dishonest players were on the same playing field. There was no room for cheating. With 'call fouls on yourself' the honest players will follow the expectations, but some might not. This gives an unfair advantage to dishonest players. Easy to say "This shouldn't happen". But the truth is that we set up a standard that rewards cheaters, we are punishing honest players.

I think ANY time you set up a rule that is on an honor system to enforce it creates room for cheating and penalizes integrity. This is why I initially didn't like the 'call your own foul' trend. It is also why I don't like 'no pattern racking' rules. It is too easy for a player to get around this rule by rotating between 3 advantageous patterns (maybe flipping them symetrically). Once again, the player who racks them truly randomly is at a disadvantage. Now we can say "Top players will transcend this and truth and justice will win out". This is a great story. But we've seen too many times this isn't the case.

So do we want social guidelines that make us feel good about how honest we are while also opening the door for, and even incentivizing, cheating? Or do we want rules that protect high integrity professionals from cheaters and actually eliminate it entirely?

I think the pros outweigh the cons on this one. My only point is that it isn't black and white. It's not just "What do we feel is right". It's rather "What will happen if we make this the right rule?" Tournament directors often set up new rules expecting people to follow them. I learned as a manager and a parent that whenever you implement a new policy you can't simply ask "Will people following this rule make things better?" You always have to ask "If people DON'T follow this policy and I have to enforce consequences, will the resulting pain be worth it?" In other words, any new rule should hold up whethher people follow it or not, otherwise you're setting yourself up for failure.

Anyway, I think it's a great conversation. I think the questions are "How should things be set up, why, what are the positives and negatives?" I can go along that calling foul on ourselves is progression towards professional play. I can go along that it's worth the slight opportunity for unscrupulous people taking advantage. I just couldn't go along with thinking it's the only way things could be set up. It wasn't that way in my home room in the 90s and we weren't horrible people, just playing in a different era.

PS- I also used to play with a Pastor that would never take an intentional foul. He would never tie something up in 9 ball or take a scratch in straight pool or one pocket. He felt it was unethical because it was against the rules. Just another example of how we can interpret things differently. What if the day comes intentional fouls are considered unsportsmanlike? Would we look at the players you are today and say you lacked morals?
 
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DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey JV and Pool playa, some very good responses.

JV, we're on the same page. I also agree with you that in today's actual (not hypothetical) world, the social standard is definitely that we ought to call foul on ourselves. For that reason I do so, and I applaud others that do the same. Where I grew up in the 90s this wasn't the case, I was taught to never call foul on myself and no one else did either, but since 2000 or so I've adapted to the global standard instead of what was maybe just my local area, or a different time.

Pool playa, you bring up a great conversation. I think right and wrong are up to our society, but you're right there are larger patterns we follow and hopefully we continue to evolve to higher and higher standards. Clearly we've made a lot of great strides. Yet I think that when our generation is viewed in the rear view mirror we will be found lacking. Maybe in 100 years we are all vegetarian and we find it horrible that we used to breed animals for slaughter when we had viable alternatives. Maybe we have brought the entire world out of poverty and we can't believe we used to use phones made by third world countries with unlivable conditions. So it's not that we don't know right and wrong, but you're right that there are speed bumps that make progress slower than we'd like it.

I feel calling fouls on ourselves is an example. So is taking a break on your own inning (so people don't intentionally or unintentionally shark their opponent), not making concessions, etc. This seems to be a progression that feels right to most people.

There are other times when things aren't as clear. If someone used beta blockers in a world championship that might be considered a disqualification and they would be looked down upon for cheating. But if that same player drinks coffee then we think nothing of it. What's the difference? We can talk degree, but it's all about social norms.

The reason it may not always be as clear is because sometimes there are unforseen consequences. For example, one nice thing about 'don't call fouls on yourself' was that it was FAIR. In other words, honest and dishonest players were on the same playing field. There was no room for cheating. With 'call fouls on yourself' the honest players will follow the expectations, but some might not. This gives an unfair advantage to dishonest players. Easy to say "This shouldn't happen". But the truth is that we set up a standard that rewards cheaters, we are punishing honest players.

I think ANY time you set up a rule that is on an honor system to enforce it creates room for cheating and penalizes integrity. This is why I initially didn't like the 'call your own foul' trend. It is also why I don't like 'no pattern racking' rules. It is too easy for a player to get around this rule by rotating between 3 advantageous patterns (maybe flipping them symetrically). Once again, the player who racks them truly randomly is at a disadvantage. Now we can say "Top players will transcend this and truth and justice will win out". This is a great story. But we've seen too many times this isn't the case.

So do we want social guidelines that make us feel good about how honest we are while also opening the door for, and even incentivizing, cheating? Or do we want rules that protect high integrity professionals from cheaters and actually eliminate it entirely?

I think the pros outweigh the cons on this one. My only point is that it isn't black and white. It's not just "What do we feel is right". It's rather "What will happen if we make this the right rule?" Tournament directors often set up new rules expecting people to follow them. I learned as a manager and a parent that whenever you implement a new policy you can't simply ask "Will people following this rule make things better?" You always have to ask "If people DON'T follow this policy and I have to enforce consequences, will the resulting pain be worth it?" In other words, any new rule should hold up whethher people follow it or not, otherwise you're setting yourself up for failure.

Anyway, I think it's a great conversation. I think the questions are "How should things be set up, why, what are the positives and negatives?" I can go along that calling foul on ourselves is progression towards professional play. I can go along that it's worth the slight opportunity for unscrupulous people taking advantage. I just couldn't go along with thinking it's the only way things could be set up. It wasn't that way in my home room in the 90s and we weren't horrible people, just playing in a different era.

PS- I also used to play with a Pastor that would never take an intentional foul. He would never tie something up in 9 ball or take a scratch in straight pool or one pocket. He felt it was unethical because it was against the rules. Just another example of how we can interpret things differently. What if the day comes intentional fouls are considered unsportsmanlike? Would we look at the players you are today and say you lacked morals?

Your pastor obviously never read the rulebook. We’re talking ‘apples & oranges’ here (ignorance is not an ethical issue). There are still a lot of barrooms where playing a safety can get you hurt.
If the rules say balls must be random, then ‘pattern racking’ is cheating.
If I know my opponent as an honorable sportsman, I don’t have to watch his every move while performing my duty as ‘referee’. If a shot is likely to be close, he will call me over to watch it, and if the outcome isn‘t obvious, he will trust me to give him the benefit of the doubt (as the rules dictate).
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I think ANY time you set up a rule that is on an honor system to enforce it creates room for cheating and penalizes integrity. This is why I initially didn't like the 'call your own foul' trend. It is also why I don't like 'no pattern racking' rules. It is too easy for a player to get around this rule by rotating between 3 advantageous patterns (maybe flipping them symetrically). Once again, the player who racks them truly randomly is at a disadvantage. Now we can say "Top players will transcend this and truth and justice will win out". This is a great story. But we've seen too many times this isn't the case.
Just so we continue to be on the same page. I would never suggest we should have an "honour system rule". We all know that in pool, that will just lead to disappointment. That's a slight spin on what you said, but the point remains.

My whole stance revolves around the character standard we should hold professionals to.
 

bb9ball

Registered
'don't call fouls on yourself' .. There was no room for cheating. ...

Really, no cheating?

As for "nuanced" pattern racking, see if you notice a pattern in Shane's racks in this match,

I've wondered if Corey's 8 ball pattern would have been caught, if he only used it to get ahead in a match or if behind. How much of an advantage is a game on the wire in every match. or only matches with elite players?
 

uwate

daydreaming about pool
Silver Member
Honest players who are champions still exist.

Jason Sheerman who is the current US Amateur Champion was playing the International 9ball event that was done by Accustats in October and was playing against Tony Robles. Double hill 10-10 Jason broke dry and as Robles is coming to the table preparing to push out Jason tells him that the break was illegal (3 balls did not pass the headstring) and that he has the option to give the shot back. Jason then tells Tony that if he gives the shot back that Jason is not allowed to push out. Tony was unaware of the illegal break and would have slept it had Jason not told him.

Robles gave the shot back to Jason who kicked at the 1 and missed and Robles took BIH and ran out to win 11-10.
 

DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Honest players who are champions still exist.

Jason Sheerman who is the current US Amateur Champion was playing the International 9ball event that was done by Accustats in October and was playing against Tony Robles. Double hill 10-10 Jason broke dry and as Robles is coming to the table preparing to push out Jason tells him that the break was illegal (3 balls did not pass the headstring) and that he has the option to give the shot back. Jason then tells Tony that if he gives the shot back that Jason is not allowed to push out. Tony was unaware of the illegal break and would have slept it had Jason not told him.

Robles gave the shot back to Jason who kicked at the 1 and missed and Robles took BIH and ran out to win 11-10.
Interesting. Amateur vs. Pro: (I wonder what would have happened if the situation was reversed?). One playing (basically) for glory (which he earned IMO), the other just trying to make a living (?) in a severely hampered, pandemic economic environment. Not as clear-cut obviously as the ‘calling a foul on oneself’ issue.
 
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