Bank with a little twist

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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Do you think Freddie's advice to use maximum side (3 tips) is best? I'd think less is more.

pj
chgo
His three tips might be different from yours. The cut looks to be about half-ball to the wrong side, so you do need a fair amount to just get to even. But I agree -- probably not max.
 

Ken_4fun

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is my favorite bank shot to watch. On Youtube Cole Dickerson makes a couple twist backs that made my head spin and I was at DCC when he shot them.

Ken
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you hit closer to the pocket, less english will do the trick. They probably hit it so wide to insure it banks though.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
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If you hit closer to the pocket, less english will do the trick. They probably hit it so wide to insure it banks though.
With a fullish hit it's easy to use too much side spin and actually reduce the amount of transferred spin. With a dead straight hit anything over half of maximum side spin reduces transferred spin - this shot looks like about a 3/4 hit, so probably about 70% of max (50% + 20%) is best. That might be about what Freddy meant by "three tips".

pj
chgo
 

TeeA

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Can’t believe I heard Nicki Vacc’s name. Remember as a kid in the 50s seeing him make all kinds of proposition games with some the best hustlers in Atlantic City. The one that stood out was Nicki playing Bridgeton Herbie something like 10-3 one pocket, but Herbie could only use his shaft. After a couple of losing sessions Herbie got a repair man to drill out his shaft and load it with some weight. Needless to say, the stakes were raised and Herbie robbed him.
 

9andout

Gunnin' for a 2 pack!!
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I like Freddy. His commentating and videos.
He needed a better editor (friend) for his Encyclopedia of Hustlers though. Some things better left unsaid.
Dude should've been fired.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Can’t believe I heard Nicki Vacc’s name. Remember as a kid in the 50s seeing him make all kinds of proposition games with some the best hustlers in Atlantic City. The one that stood out was Nicki playing Bridgeton Herbie something like 10-3 one pocket, but Herbie could only use his shaft. After a couple of losing sessions Herbie got a repair man to drill out his shaft and load it with some weight. Needless to say, the stakes were raised and Herbie robbed him.
That's also a Ronnie Allen story I've heard.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
With a fullish hit it's easy to use too much side spin and actually reduce the amount of transferred spin. With a dead straight hit anything over half of maximum side spin reduces transferred spin - this shot looks like about a 3/4 hit, so probably about 70% of max (50% + 20%) is best. That might be about what Freddy meant by "three tips".

pj
chgo
Why would spin transfer be reduced when using more spin on the cue ball??
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
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Here's a video I did for one of Freddie's bansk with a "bend:"

 

Bob Jewett

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Why would spin transfer be reduced when using more spin on the cue ball??
Friction is complicated. You can think of it as similar to the case of trying to start a car on ice -- slower works better. The faster two surfaces are slipping against each other, the less is the force of friction.

One of the results of that is that soft shots can throw more than hard shots.

A second result is that for cuts thinner than about half ball, inside english will tend to reduce throw.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
Thanks for sharing this wonderful footage.

Freddie is sorely missed in the world of pool. At the Derby, Truman Hogue has very capably filled in as bank pool's greatest ambassador, but nobody has managed to equal Freddie's level of enthusiasm for everything relating to bank shots. Gone but not forgotten.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Why would spin transfer be reduced when using more spin on the cue ball??

As detailed answer can be found on the throw speed effects resource page. Here is a pertinent quote:

The reason why CIT is less at faster speeds and inside spin at larger cut angles and SIT is less with more sidespin is: friction is less at faster sliding speeds between the ball surfaces. With more cut angle and speed or with an amount of sidespin very different from the gearing amount, the CB slides along the OB with faster relative speed during contact, producing less throwing force. One possible reason for this is that the air compressed between the balls during contact doesn’t get out of the way as easily with a faster relative surface speed. Also, maybe with faster relative surface speed, the asperities (small but rough features) on the surfaces don’t interact, catch, or lock as easily since they are hitting, flexing, and vibrating more dynamically.
 
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fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
Friction is complicated. You can think of it as similar to the case of trying to start a car on ice -- slower works better. The faster two surfaces are slipping against each other, the less is the force of friction.

One of the results of that is that soft shots can throw more than hard shots.

A second result is that for cuts thinner than about half ball, inside english will tend to reduce throw.
Getting a car moving on ice and spinning the tires vs slowly accelerating is a great analogy.
I would assume the above does not hold true for a ball contacting a rail because the rail compresses so much and relative contact time is so much longer, more spin RPM's equal more angle change.
 

Pin

Registered
I like Freddy. His commentating and videos.
He needed a better editor (friend) for his Encyclopedia of Hustlers though. Some things better left unsaid.
Dude should've been fired.
The story about Detroit Whitey's kids was pretty chilling, TBH.
But I'd definitely rather know than have the sanitized version. In that sense, it was an exceptional book, and full credit to the guy for being willing to put it out there.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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Silver Member
Getting a car moving on ice and spinning the tires vs slowly accelerating is a great analogy.
I would assume the above does not hold true for a ball contacting a rail because the rail compresses so much and relative contact time is so much longer, more spin RPM's equal more angle change.
What does hold true for a ball into a cushion is that above a certain number of RPMs (for a fixed speed and going straight into the cushion) the angle out of the cushion does not change. That maximum angle is about 45 degrees.
 
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