Bert kinister 60 min workout-TINMAN

raycharlesbrown

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
THX TIN MAN - cost me 5 bucks- priceless. Took time watch it. Document shots/have them taped on wall before tomorrow
THIS RECOMMENDED VIDEO FROM THE TIN touches every aspect from fundamentals to shot speed, draw, follow, staying off rails, speed, speed, speed, less English always better.....it literally touches every aspect of game minus banks

5 bucks.
Wow
 

Lawnboy77

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I really like those Bert Kinister videos, I've been doing many of his drills for a few years now and boy has it made a difference. Heck, who knows, I might just be able to master this game before I get set out to pasture in the old folks home.
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
My pleasure.

The more students I work with the more I am a believer in Bert Kinister's work out. It's not for everyone. Advanced players that already know these shots won't gain as much out of it. But I've been very surprised at how many players come to my bootcamps that don't have all of these tools in their toolbox.

As I've done my bootcamps I've seen that most players fall into one of three buckets:

1. Can't draw
2. Can't spin
3. Can't put it together.

The first category of players have switched from recreational play to taking the game more seriously, but they are still just learning. They may have patchy fundamentals and they don't have much tip accuracy. Up until now they have focused mostly on the object ball contact point and don't have much precision with the cue ball contact point. Maybe they can stop the ball or force it back with a low whack, but they don't have a good concept of positional options with high and low. Maybe they have a general directional sense (i.e. the cue ball is going up table, or it's bouncing across table) but it's way too vague and not under their command.

The next group really surprised me as I didn't realize how many players avoided sidespin. There are so many people that talk about the negatives of sidespin and how you should stay on vertical access or stick to one tip off center that many people think they're playing the game correctly by not spinning the ball. I've had students that actually can't spin the ball. I tell them to shoot a shot with right spin and the measles aren't even turning. Or maybe they put a twist on that wears off by the time it hits the rail. They, too, might suffer from poor tip accuracy, but mostly they've just never tried seeing how far you can hit off center. Or they say they miss too much due to deflection so avoid it, instead of learning to feel the shots and adapt.

Finally there are the advanced students. They know all the shots. They've seen all the videos. They have good fundamentals. There isn't much I can set up on the table they don't know how to execute. And they can sometimes run 2-3 racks of 9 ball when it's going right for them. But yet when I have them play the 6 ball ghost on my 9' Diamond (or even the 5 ball ghost) they often break even at best. What in the world?!? These, my friends, are the people that haven't figured out how to put it together. They have huge, huge, huge, enormous holes in their pattern play, but they think they are playing great because it works sometimes. Their biggest problem is they don't see the problem. They are constantly getting funny on balls and having to resort to 'recovery shots'. On their good days they make them and most of the time they don't, so they decide the issue is consistency or fundamentals. They don't realize that the only way to be consistent is to play superior patterns that allow them to avoid shots no one can make consistently. Instead they roll the dice on every shot and wonder why they crap out so often.

That's it. That's what I've seen.

For people in the first bucket they need instruction from guys like Scott Lee, Randy, or Dr. Dave. They should be working on wagon wheel drills that teach tip accuracy and vertical access position play. The middle bucket needs Bert Kinister (Dr. Dave would benefit all students as well). Learn how to spin the ball around. Forget about that one tip off center. If you're going to play rotation games you'd better forget about center ball and learn to love the edge of the ball. All top players are comfortable with extreme spin on routine shots, they only avoid it with distance and speed.

As for the group at the bottom, these are the guys that I really think should come bootcamp it up. If you can't draw or spin the ball you don't need to come to MN for me to show you how to lower your tip. But if you have all the tools, have seen all the videos, and can run tables some of the time, then it's time to learn the differences between how pros and amateurs move the cue ball around the table and stack the deck in their favor from shot to shot. How to build their run around the key transition and then make the entire thing fool proof. So if you're in the 550-650 Fargo Rate range and think you know it all and that the only reason you aren't playing pro speed is you don't have enough hours, you're wrong. You have the right tools but need to put them together the right way.

Anyway, Ray, it seems like you're towards the strong end of the first category. I think Bert Kinister is a great resource for anyone from your level through the 'non-spinners'. He was really on to something. There is more I can say about why I like his approach but I'll leave that for another thread. Good luck!
 
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pocket

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That’s what’s always held me back from renting this video...the lack of accompanying materials.
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
60 minute workout made me player i am today. It was tremendous change when i got that tape 20+ years ago. I always try recommend it when i can. I also keep doing it time to time. Should do more..
 

gforces1911

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Same here

60 minute workout made me player i am today. It was tremendous change when i got that tape 20+ years ago. I always try recommend it when i can. I also keep doing it time to time. Should do more..

That video really helped me. I think I bought all of his videos. And at times that was not easy. I would find an extra $60 and buy a couple. Later in life I actually went and saw him in person for lessons. That shot #1 I still shoot to this day. It does something.
 

De420MadHatter

SicBiNature
Silver Member
Spent countless hours around him in Dallas pool halls.
Watched him spend hr after with Neils back when he was just starting out.
I would move 2 tables down from him, and copy whatever he was teaching.
Brings back some good memories.
Is that ticky little bastard still around?
Haven't seen him in years...
 

nine_ball6970

585 speed drunk
Silver Member
Spent countless hours around him in Dallas pool halls.
Watched him spend hr after with Neils back when he was just starting out.
I would move 2 tables down from him, and copy whatever he was teaching.
Brings back some good memories.
Is that ticky little bastard still around?
Haven't seen him in years...

He still posts on FB sometimes. I think he is living in Florida but not 100% sure.
 

JolietJames

Boot Party Coordinator
Silver Member
I used to take lessons from him at his house in Illinois.
I can't tell you how much he brought up my game. I miss his brutal honesty as well as his instruction.
 

jeffj2h

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Of course Bert is still around! He lives south of Chicago. A few years ago he told me he played at Red Shoes Billiards in Alsip.

I learned a ton from his videos and from lessons when he lived in Dallas.

His energy adds a lot of fun to his videos, and they are peppered with gems.
 

Tommy-D

World's best B player...
Silver Member
I've been a believer since the days when the ONLY way to get it was VHS.

If given the chance,I do shot #1 100 times before I do anything else. Tommy D.
 

GaryB

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First instructional video I ever bought. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that every shot is a no scratch shot. I believe there was 27 shots that always seem to come up in a game.

When my Clubhouse reopens the first shot I hit will be a #1 and I guarantee that it will take me awhile to hit it right. Then I will do Mother Drill #3. I feel that every Kinister tape will teach you something.

Some guys ridiculed the size pf his teaching table but as I told all of them it is a 2 to 1 table and all of his shots translate to a larger table.

A lot of guys think that they hit the #1 right but it is not a stop shot that many of them hit. It is not an easy shot to really master.
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First instructional video I ever bought. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that every shot is a no scratch shot. I believe there was 27 shots that always seem to come up in a game.

When my Clubhouse reopens the first shot I hit will be a #1 and I guarantee that it will take me awhile to hit it right. Then I will do Mother Drill #3. I feel that every Kinister tape will teach you something.

Some guys ridiculed the size pf his teaching table but as I told all of them it is a 2 to 1 table and all of his shots translate to a larger table.

A lot of guys think that they hit the #1 right but it is not a stop shot that many of them hit. It is not an easy shot to really master.
And for the love of buddha, I cannot shoot #1 if I don't exaggerate the elbow drop.
Like Bert.
 

GaryB

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And for the love of buddha, I cannot shoot #1 if I don't exaggerate the elbow drop.
Like Bert.

Interesting! That is something I will have to check out when I can get back on a table. I'm usually so happy when I hit a few right and the cue ball replaces the object ball that I haven't really paid attention to the mechanics.

Nice Bocote!!
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you can master the skill in any Kinister vid, yer ding dong daddy playin.

Has anybody see the youtube vid of niels coming to america to train? I saw it once- 20yr ago- and have never been able to find it again. Fuggit, I am feeling soft. A reward to the first finder...post link in this thread and receive reward via mail.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JoeyInCali...Well my friend, elbow drop is not necessary to shoot the replacement shot...just like elbow drop is not required for any other shot. It's all about hitting your natural finish point on every SOP shot...or about 90% of everything we shoot in a game. :grin:

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

And for the love of buddha, I cannot shoot #1 if I don't exaggerate the elbow drop.
Like Bert.
 

8cree

Sometimes they roll that way.
Gold Member
Silver Member
get outta my head man

These, my friends, are the people that haven't figured out how to put it together. They have huge, huge, huge, enormous holes in their pattern play, but they think they are playing great because it works sometimes. Their biggest problem is they don't see the problem. They are constantly getting funny on balls and having to resort to 'recovery shots'. On their good days they make them and most of the time they don't, so they decide the issue is consistency or fundamentals. They don't realize that the only way to be consistent is to play superior patterns that allow them to avoid shots no one can make consistently.


You hit the nail on the head here. One day, I will get my ducks in a row and get some actual help on such things, until then, I'll just keep tryin to pocket balls and keep my fundamentals as sound as possible. Thanks for keeping things in perspective.
 
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