Chang - Foul or Not?

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
It feels like we’ve addressed this “touching the cueball with the tip during BiH” a thousand times. I always understood this not to be a foul. But John called it. The wording says, “forward stroke.” I don’t think for one moment what Chang did constitutes a forward stroke. The intent was clear: positioning the cueball.


Really, I’m not looking for opinions from people who have nothing to do with creating or clarifying the rules. So really looking to Bob, Dr Dave, RandyG, even Ozzy.

 

Flakeandrun

Well-known member
It feels like we’ve addressed this “touching the cueball with the tip during BiH” a thousand times. I always understood this not to be a foul. But John called it. The wording says, “forward stroke.” I don’t think for one moment what Chang did constitutes a forward stroke. The intent was clear: positioning the cueball.


Really, I’m not looking for opinions from people who have nothing to do with creating or clarifying the rules. So really looking to Bob, Dr Dave, RandyG, even Ozzy.

Won't work. But moving the cue ball with the cue with BIH is no problem in my eyes. From the eyes of the law... probably a foul. But we all know what a miscue, or an intentional stroke looks like. Placing the ball with the cue is acceptable, and like Garczar said, kind of BS to call as a foul.
 

DeadStick

i like turtles
Gold Member
Silver Member
WPA rules say you can use the tip to position a BIH, as long as it’s not a “forward stroke” motion. Anyone know the definition of “forward stroke”? In my mind, that would be a typical stroke when hitting a ball, with both hands on the cue. How else would you use the tip to gently reposition a ball other than nudging the ball forward like he did?

That said, I’ve never seen this done before, and personally I would never do it.

IMG_5378.jpeg
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Stone cold foul. It doesn't matter what his intention is. He hit the cue ball with his cue. I've played in tournaments where the TD said you can only use your hand to position the cue ball - which I think is daft and beyond nitty. But in this situation he played a shot, probably even an illegal push or double shot. It's a foul, one that many refs or opponents wouldn't call. Props to the ref.
 

Monti

Active member
It feels like we’ve addressed this “touching the cueball with the tip during BiH” a thousand times. I always understood this not to be a foul. But John called it. The wording says, “forward stroke.” I don’t think for one moment what Chang did constitutes a forward stroke. The intent was clear: positioning the cueball.


Really, I’m not looking for opinions from people who have nothing to do with creating or clarifying the rules. So really looking to Bob, Dr Dave, RandyG, even Ozzy.

It’s funny. I played a tournament Saturday (MUCH lower level) I was preparing to get the 2nd foul of a 3 foul win and my opponent called me on this. I said I was just pushing the ball into position which I clearly was doing. I said if you want to call it then go ahead, to be fair he said go ahead we will clarify with tournament director after.
She explained that technically it was a foul if it was when down ready for the shot but if I was obviously just positioning it, then it was ok.
I certainly won’t do it again and when I got the 3rd foul I put my cue down and positioned it by hand!
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Without an explicit WPA definition of “forward stroke” available, I personally adopt the CSI definition of a legal stroke to apply as the WPA definition of a forward stroke.
IMG_4417.jpeg


And I personally interpret the intention of the rule to be that any motion that would be acceptable for executing a shot must not be used to position the cueball.
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Without an explicit WPA definition of “forward stroke” available, I personally adopt the CSI definition of a legal stroke to apply as the WPA definition of a forward stroke.View attachment 727443

And I personally interpret the intention of the rule to be that any motion that would be acceptable for executing a shot must not be used to position the cueball.
I agree, he played a shot. Probably more than one shot actually. I've never seen this before - even seasoned recreational players know you can use the tip to position the ball but you can't hit the ball with the tip. It's not even a question, it's a foul.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
I haven’t played competitive snooker for decades….but when I did, touching the cue ball with the tip was a foul.
….the ferrule was fine, but with the tip, you‘re opening up a can of worms. Most people have made a foul by addressing the cue ball.
 

Flakeandrun

Well-known member
I was expecting to say it was not a foul but wow, that was sloppy. What’s he doing hitting the ball multiple times with his cue tip in a forward motion? Foul.
Having finally watched it... He was stood up right, manoeuvring the ball into place. When was the last time you played a shot one handed stood up? I'd say that's a bit ridiculous to call as a foul - especially when there's no set definition as what constitutes a foul, beyond the above descriptions given.
 

Flakeandrun

Well-known member
Without an explicit WPA definition of “forward stroke” available, I personally adopt the CSI definition of a legal stroke to apply as the WPA definition of a forward stroke.

And I personally interpret the intention of the rule to be that any motion that would be acceptable for executing a shot must not be used to position the cueball.
I think common sense comes into play from both sides - make the ruling clearer, or more specific.
 

Sheldon

dontneednostinkintitle
Silver Member
It all boils down to the interpretation of exactly what "forward stroke motion" means. He did push the cue ball with the tip using a forward motion. While it's obvious he WAS positioning the ball and not shooting, the ref decided it resembled a forward stroke enough to call the foul. This will just be another one of those endless arguments over definitions.
 

Flakeandrun

Well-known member
It all boils down to the interpretation of exactly what "forward stroke motion" means. He did push the cue ball with the tip using a forward motion. While it's obvious he WAS positioning the ball and not shooting, the ref decided it resembled a forward stroke enough to call the foul. This will just be another one of those endless arguments over definitions.
right, so they should make it clearer - if we can obviously see he was positioning the ball, then the definition needs to be made clearer for what is acceptable. If world class pros are making such a mistake... then obviously it needs looking at...
He's literally stood up, one handed...
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It all boils down to the interpretation of exactly what "forward stroke motion" means. He did push the cue ball with the tip using a forward motion. While it's obvious he WAS positioning the ball and not shooting, the ref decided it resembled a forward stroke enough to call the foul. This will just be another one of those endless arguments over definitions.
It took guts on the ref’s part to call that foul in that situation, but there was no hesitation on his part and was the right call by the book.

If he continued to position the cue ball with his shaft like he started doing, it would have been fine, but as soon as he started moving it forward with his tip is when the foul was immediately called.

Reminds me when a foul is called on a player for letting go of their cue while laying it on the table during their turn - it’s the rule although you rarely see it called.
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think common sense comes into play from both sides - make the ruling clearer, or more specific.
I agree. It was a nitty call by the ref. But refs are supposed to be nitty. That means we have a flaw in the rules. But it’s clear to me the rules are that you can’t execute an act on the cueball with your stick that would be accepted as a legal shot in any other circumstances. And if you’re in the finals of a “world championship” as a seasoned professional then you should be prepared for the refs to be nitty. Common sense is for when sportsmanship is in the hands of two opponents squaring off with decency and grace. But you have to expect it to be different when a referee presides. It’ll be about the letter of the book at that point.
 

Flakeandrun

Well-known member
I agree. It was a nitty call by the ref. But refs are supposed to be nitty. That means we have a flaw in the rules. But it’s clear to me the rules are that you can’t execute an act on the cueball with your stick that would be accepted as a legal shot in any other circumstances. And if you’re in the finals of a “world championship” as a seasoned professional then you should be prepared for the refs to be nitty. Common sense is for when sportsmanship is in the hands of two opponents squaring off with decency and grace. But you have to expect it to be different when a referee presides. It’ll be about the letter of the book at that point.
Is standing up and playing one handed the accepted norm?
More clarity from any of the higher-ups required.
I think in terms of controversy and talking points, maybe it sells... we are all talking about it. It gets more eyes. In terms of the spirit of the game... horrible call.
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is standing up and playing one handed the accepted norm?
More clarity from any of the higher-ups required.
I think in terms of controversy and talking points, maybe it sells... we are all talking about it. It gets more eyes. In terms of the spirit of the game... horrible call.
It’s not that different from the time Kristina Zlateva was down on Tyler Styer in the 9-ball World Pool Championship and pocketed the nine. Then reached into the pocket, grabbed some balls, threw them on the table, and one hit the cueball before it was done moving. Yes the cueball wasn’t going to scratch. All sportsmanship would have let it go. But in that arena the ref needs to be nitty. Foul called. 9 spot up. Ball in hand. When you are a pro in a world championship with a ref present, you need to act like you’ve been there before. These things shouldn’t be a surprise.
 
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