Cloth 860 vs 920?

smoochie

NotLikeThis
I decided to buy new cushions. I have asked a friend to do the same test on his table which has the same cloth installed by the same mechanic and it bounced four rails and a half.

anyone knows how to buy a GC4 rails online for good price? I looked in Amazon and couldn’t find any.
 

couldnthinkof01

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I decided to buy new cushions. I have asked a friend to do the same test on his table which has the same cloth installed by the same mechanic and it bounced four rails and a half.

anyone knows how to buy a GC4 rails online for good price? I looked in Amazon and couldn’t find any.
I listened to it after grey ghost posted. Like he said you may not need new rails. Just a tightening of the bolts.
 

smoochie

NotLikeThis
I listened to it after grey ghost posted. Like he said you may not need new rails. Just a tightening of the bolts.
I’m going to be honest here I didn’t know exactly how to perform this but I called the mechanic who installed the cloth and he said that he tightening them as hard as he could. I don’t know if he’s telling the truth or just don’t want to come over.
Do I need a specific tool to perform this rail tightening and does it require any type of disassembly? I searched on YouTube and couldn’t find a instructional video
 

smoochie

NotLikeThis
These are the bolts I need to try and tightening right? Anyone know a good tool that does the job easily
 

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greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
I’m going to be honest here I didn’t know exactly how to perform this but I called the mechanic who installed the cloth and he said that he tightening them as hard as he could. I don’t know if he’s telling the truth or just don’t want to come over.
Do I need a specific tool to perform this rail tightening and does it require any type of disassembly? I searched on YouTube and couldn’t find a instructional video

“Tightened them as hard as he could”

NEVER LET THIS IDIOT AROUND YOUR TABLE OR ANYONE ELSES TABLE YOU KNOW EVER AGAIN.

That’s a good way to ruin the capture nut inside the rails by bending it and then falling the bolt inside it, or the big staples that hold it from spinning get broken. Which then become non removable without drilling the heads off then removing the actual cushion to access the slot then using a oscillating cutter to cut the bolt off the nut to get the whole thing out.

You can drive a long Brad nail on each side like the staple is placed to reinforce it so the staple won’t break/or if it has broken.

Talk about a can of worms. I’ve gone behind so called mechanics that were nothing of the sort that have done this to tables.

Go buy a torque wrench they are cheap enough and the right socket (1/2”) and use the torque settings I mentioned already


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
Cant see picture good enough to see what kind washer that it. It might be wrong way though... Could explain why rails suddenly went bad.

That washer is upside down . The notched side sits on the slate and spreads the force out on the surface. The “dome” should be facing DOWN towards the floor!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
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smoochie

NotLikeThis
That washer is upside down . The notched side sits on the wood and spreads the force out on the surface. The “dome” should be facing DOWN towards the floor!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
dang that mechanic then isn't good at what he does? today when I talked to him he was full of himself too saying that he's been working for 15 yrs on this business and he installs tables for the national team, he was laughing at me when I told him that he didn't do the rails properly. I can't believe this, he put these upside down...shall I fix them before tightening these bolts tomorrow? I don't know if i can remove those or not.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
It appears some people have very little understanding of what factors are important in table speed...

1. If you are in damp conditions, you should stay away from simonis 860. First of all 860 loses speed fast, but in damp condition turns into a complete rug. This is a commonality with cloths with high wool content. Simonis 760 has more synthetic material and will not only retain its speed through longer of its lifespan, but stands up to damp conditions as well. Granted, it plays like slick ice in the first week or two, but then settles down to a very nice speed. Pros wanted 860 because they play on brand new cloth, and 760 doesn't play well when it's brand new, it needs a week or two to settle down. Once 860 has been on a table for 6-8 months, it becomes soooo slow. 760 you can play until you wear through it. It will still be fast at that point, so long as you vacuum or brush it. If you want a fast table, 760 should be your first choice. All cloths play faster if they are properly stretched.

2. Damp conditions make the ball bounce harder off the rails. If your rails appear dead, and it's damp, they're really, REALLY dead.

3. When you tighten down rail bolts, there is no bonus points for tightening down harder than spec, only downsides. You risk ruining your rails. Find the specs for the table, and follow them around the entire table. After a while you won't need a torque wrench, but in the beginning it's a good idea. On old, beat up tables, you'll often find stripped nuts and rails that won't properly bolt down, because of stupid orangutans who have to try to show how strong they are. Reparing this is tricky and time-consuming.

4. Dead rails...Check that rail bolts are torqued to spec. and that the rail nose is at the proper height. If neither of these are the problem, take cloth off and check if the rubber is loose. Typically, if the glue has come undone, it's time to change the rubber anyway, but in a pinch you can try gluing it back on with contact glue. Installing new rubber is a bit difficult, and not for the faint of heart. You not only need to make sure to get the proper rubber profile, but cutting and glueing it consistently is tough as well. If you have to reprofile your cushions, then you need a pro.
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It appears some people have very little understanding of what factors are important in table speed...

1. If you are in damp conditions, you should stay away from simonis 860. First of all 860 loses speed fast, but in damp condition turns into a complete rug. This is a commonality with cloths with high wool content. Simonis 760 has more synthetic material and will not only retain its speed through longer of its lifespan, but stands up to damp conditions as well. Granted, it plays like slick ice in the first week or two, but then settles down to a very nice speed. Pros wanted 860 because they play on brand new cloth, and 760 doesn't play well when it's brand new, it needs a week or two to settle down. Once 860 has been on a table for 6-8 months, it becomes soooo slow. 760 you can play until you wear through it. It will still be fast at that point, so long as you vacuum or brush it. If you want a fast table, 760 should be your first choice. All cloths play faster if they are properly stretched.

2. Damp conditions make the ball bounce harder off the rails. If your rails appear dead, and it's damp, they're really, REALLY dead.

3. When you tighten down rail bolts, there is no bonus points for tightening down harder than spec, only downsides. You risk ruining your rails. Find the specs for the table, and follow them around the entire table. After a while you won't need a torque wrench, but in the beginning it's a good idea. On old, beat up tables, you'll often find stripped nuts and rails that won't properly bolt down, because of stupid orangutans who have to try to show how strong they are. Reparing this is tricky and time-consuming.

4. Dead rails...Check that rail bolts are torqued to spec. and that the rail nose is at the proper height. If neither of these are the problem, take cloth off and check if the rubber is loose. Typically, if the glue has come undone, it's time to change the rubber anyway, but in a pinch you can try gluing it back on with contact glue. Installing new rubber is a bit difficult, and not for the faint of heart. You not only need to make sure to get the proper rubber profile, but cutting and glueing it consistently is tough as well. If you have to reprofile your cushions, then you need a pro.
One drawback to 760 is it is very thin and wears pretty fast. In a home table its fine, in a p'room 860HR is the best balance of speed and durability. 860 does slow-up pretty rapidly. Fine if all you play is rotation but for 1p/14.1 its too slow imo.
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
dang that mechanic then isn't good at what he does? today when I talked to him he was full of himself too saying that he's been working for 15 yrs on this business and he installs tables for the national team, he was laughing at me when I told him that he didn't do the rails properly. I can't believe this, he put these upside down...shall I fix them before tightening these bolts tomorrow? I don't know if i can remove those or not.

Yes he def deserves to be laughed at. Any “mechanic” wether a pool table or a engine whatever shouldn’t be oblivious to the direction a washer of that type should be placed. If he’s the national teams guy….jesus I feel bad for the national team.

Yes you just unscrew the bolt all the way then flip the crown washer then thread the bolt back in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
51b7e476c1e41f33d2391541919b3866.jpg

Little different style of crown washer from a Brunswick prestige. Notice the hump is facing down. Yours should be oriented exactly the same way.

Placing them reverse besides putting more pressure on the rail your putting way too much pressure on the hole in the slate, and tightening it up as you said he described with his crown washer installed wrong, is one way to crack the slate! It’s dispersion of pressure that’s why they use crown washers and not flat washers to begin with.


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Cclark02

New member
I’ve been playing with 920 and today is the time to change the cloth. The guy who installed the cloth told me that 860 is better and more thicker and I don’t doubt that. But he also said that all championships are played on 860 by the pros. Is the true?

I tried it and it seems really slow and you need to pound stuff to reach some positional shots. I wonder if all tournaments are used on 860 as he claims. Should I stick to 920 or go for 860?
Was the table at a bar. I believe 920 is in bars.
 

smoochie

NotLikeThis
The nerve of this guy!! He double down on his mistake!

I just called him and he said to send him a pic which I did on WhatsApp then he said that he’s willing to come tomorrow and flip all 18 domes and nuts but he said that his way is the correct way but he’s willing to do it cause of my request. He doesn’t want to admit that he did a mistake.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The nerve of this guy!! He double down on his mistake!

I just called him and he said to send him a pic which I did on WhatsApp then he said that he’s willing to come tomorrow and flip all 18 domes and nuts but he said that his way is the correct way but he’s willing to do it cause of my request. He doesn’t want to admit that he did a mistake.
Be easy to work with and be glad he didn't tell you he'll see you never.

What you want is the table fixed, don't be a dick about it, no matter how tempting it is or how justified you believe you are.

Goal: table right!
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It appears some people have very little understanding of what factors are important in table speed...

1. If you are in damp conditions, you should stay away from simonis 860. First of all 860 loses speed fast, but in damp condition turns into a complete rug. This is a commonality with cloths with high wool content. Simonis 760 has more synthetic material and will not only retain its speed through longer of its lifespan, but stands up to damp conditions as well. Granted, it plays like slick ice in the first week or two, but then settles down to a very nice speed. Pros wanted 860 because they play on brand new cloth, and 760 doesn't play well when it's brand new, it needs a week or two to settle down. Once 860 has been on a table for 6-8 months, it becomes soooo slow. 760 you can play until you wear through it. It will still be fast at that point, so long as you vacuum or brush it. If you want a fast table, 760 should be your first choice. All cloths play faster if they are properly stretched.

2. Damp conditions make the ball bounce harder off the rails. If your rails appear dead, and it's damp, they're really, REALLY dead.

3. When you tighten down rail bolts, there is no bonus points for tightening down harder than spec, only downsides. You risk ruining your rails. Find the specs for the table, and follow them around the entire table. After a while you won't need a torque wrench, but in the beginning it's a good idea. On old, beat up tables, you'll often find stripped nuts and rails that won't properly bolt down, because of stupid orangutans who have to try to show how strong they are. Reparing this is tricky and time-consuming.

4. Dead rails...Check that rail bolts are torqued to spec. and that the rail nose is at the proper height. If neither of these are the problem, take cloth off and check if the rubber is loose. Typically, if the glue has come undone, it's time to change the rubber anyway, but in a pinch you can try gluing it back on with contact glue. Installing new rubber is a bit difficult, and not for the faint of heart. You not only need to make sure to get the proper rubber profile, but cutting and glueing it consistently is tough as well. If you have to reprofile your cushions, then you need a pro.
We have found in our poolroom with our Artemis cushions, that a dead spot on a cushion is nearly always the result of the cushion coming loose from the subrail in that location, likely but not necessarily caused by a customer sitting on the cushion / rail.

This can easily be determined by going around the table with a ball and dribbling it (bouncing it) against the cushions every few inches. You will clearly detect a completely different sound in the spots where a cushion is loose, and if you you place your thumb tip on the top of the cushion rubber and your fingertips on the underside of the cushion rubber, you’ll likely be able to wiggle it and feel that it’s loose.

A good mechanic can remove that rail, loosen the staples underneath the rail around that location and temporarily repair that problem without having to completely strip off the entire rail cloth, remove and re-fasten the entire cushion rubber and apply a new rail cloth, which wouldn’t match all the other used rail cloths.
 
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