Consensus "Greatest of All Time" (GOAT) List

[Chili Palmer]

Right, I was responding specifically to this point, which you mention above:



So, the first point I would make is that, if you want to rank the greatest ever in some sport, I don't think it's reasonable to say that player A cannot be the greatest ever if they lose to (or have a losing record against) player B. That's the original point I made.

If you want to think in terms of skill level, my second point would be that I don't think overall skill level equates to, or can be measured only with respect to, wins and losses against one specific opponent. Again, to use Nadal and Federer as the example, I think it is possible for Federer to have a losing record against Nadal (even 15-24 as it now stands), but to be an overall more skilled tennis player, as would be evidenced by his overall accomplishments as compared to Nadal's.

Since greatness or how good a player is overall in competitions like tennis and pool are not measured so easily and objectively as how fast one can consistently run a mile, the comparisons and rankings are more difficult and more complicated to make (though I still think reasonable comparisons can be drawn in most cases).

I didn't follow this conversation but I agree with the bold statement. That's why I didn't put Efren over SVB. SVB's overall skill is better than Efren's but if they were both at their peak, I'm not sure who would win.

I put Archer, besides anyone else, because as mentioned, he influenced my game and was a top player then and changed the way a lot of people viewed pool.

 

[Dimeball]

FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Here's the current Top 10 (see the first post for the complete list of players and for voting instructions):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 133
2 - Earl Strickland - 67
3 - Shane Van Boening - 66
4 - Mike Sigel - 63
5 - Nick Varner - 61
6 - Alex Pagulayan - 51
7 - Johnny Archer - 43
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 42
9 - Buddy Hall - 41
10 - Wu Chia-ching - 40

Thank you for participating,
Dave

Dave,
Do you think it's likely that Efren's popularity skews this topic? I loved watching him play in his prime and I still love watching him play today. He's the obvious choice for topics such as creative, popular, etc etc etc... and he's so darn likable... LOL.
The GOAT should be someone is the best or close to it at all facets and we all know his struggles with the break, which in a lot of games is arguably the single most important shot.
Today I think he is top dog because of the recorded earnings, but, that will be passed pretty soon, and likely by a few individuals. Plus we have to remember he faded one of the greatest breaks in history by coming back to win the C.O.M., that cannot be overlooked, just like SVB come darn close to fading a 17-2 spot to Chang...
All of this aside, I still think he gets a ton of votes just because he so well liked... and you know what, that's cool too. I think when it's all said and done, it will be SVB, hell he's only 35 years old, jeezzz

anyway, what's your opinion?

 

[dr_dave]

Dave,
Do you think it's likely that Efren's popularity skews this topic? I loved watching him play in his prime and I still love watching him play today. He's the obvious choice for topics such as creative, popular, etc etc etc... and he's so darn likable... LOL.
The GOAT should be someone is the best or close to it at all facets and we all know his struggles with the break, which in a lot of games is arguably the single most important shot.
Today I think he is top dog because of the recorded earnings, but, that will be passed pretty soon, and likely by a few individuals. Plus we have to remember he faded one of the greatest breaks in history by coming back to win the C.O.M., that cannot be overlooked, just like SVB come darn close to fading a 17-2 spot to Chang...
All of this aside, I still think he gets a ton of votes just because he so well liked... and you know what, that's cool too. I think when it's all said and done, it will be SVB, hell he's only 35 years old, jeezzz

anyway, what's your opinion?

IMO, Efren is hands-down the undisputed GOAT, and I doubt that will change in the foreseeable future ... and I bet SVB and most other pros would agree ... and not just because Efren is popular.

Regards,
Dave

 

[CrownCityCorey]

It's unfortunate, but Parica should be placed/scroing much higher on this list - top 10 for certain. He and Busty are really close - IMO

 

[dr_dave]

It's unfortunate, but Parica should be placed/scroing much higher on this list - top 10 for certain. He and Busty are really close - IMO

That could have been (and still can be) changed if people gave (give) him some vote points. Did you give him any?

Regards,
Dave

 

[fan-tum]

If you want to officially vote, please list scores adding to 5, per the instructions in the first post.

Thanks,
Dave

Too complicated.

 

[Chili Palmer]

Too complicated.

Here you go - just quote me, pick a group (if you have 5 players use the bottom one, if you have 2 and you want to give one a 3 pick the third one down) then just put the name behind the number:

5


4
1


3
2


2
2
1


1
1
1
1
1

 

[sjm]

Here you go - just quote me, pick a group (if you have 5 players use the bottom one, if you have 2 and you want to give one a 3 pick the third one down) then just put the name behind the number:

5


4
1


3
2


2
2
1


1
1
1
1
1

You left out 2 1 1 1

 

[sjm]

It's unfortunate, but Parica should be placed/scroing much higher on this list - top 10 for certain. He and Busty are really close - IMO

If the poll were for greatest ever "twenty ahead race" player, Parica might belong at the top of the list. I, personally, consider Parica to have been a better player than Bustamante.

 

[sjm]

Dave,
Do you think it's likely that Efren's popularity skews this topic? I loved watching him play in his prime and I still love watching him play today. He's the obvious choice for topics such as creative, popular, etc etc etc... and he's so darn likable... LOL.
The GOAT should be someone is the best or close to it at all facets and we all know his struggles with the break, which in a lot of games is arguably the single most important shot.
Today I think he is top dog because of the recorded earnings, but, that will be passed pretty soon, and likely by a few individuals. Plus we have to remember he faded one of the greatest breaks in history by coming back to win the C.O.M., that cannot be overlooked, just like SVB come darn close to fading a 17-2 spot to Chang...
All of this aside, I still think he gets a ton of votes just because he so well liked... and you know what, that's cool too. I think when it's all said and done, it will be SVB, hell he's only 35 years old, jeezzz

anyway, what's your opinion?

Well, I'm not Dave, but I'll take a crack at this.

Efren is the best ever in two disciplines, eight ball and one pocket. Some say he's also the best 15-ball rotation player ever. He's a top ten ever at nine ball. He has always played his best in the toughest events and has captured so many of the game's biggest ever paydays. When he dabbled in straight pool, he managed a second place finish in the 1993 US Open 14.1 event. His ability to excel in every discipline within the game has blown us all away. His six Derby City Classic Master of the Table titles at Derby City further validate his claim to being the best all-around player in the modern era, and he's probably the best all-around player ever (no disrespect intended to Nick Varner, Luther Lassiter, or Harold Worst, who are in the conversation).

Yup, Efren's popular, but his ability to adapt to and excel at any game played on a pool table is what has blown us all away.

 

[JC]

Efren 3

Earl 2

JC

 

[dr_dave]

Efren 3

Earl 2

JC

FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Here's the current Top 10 (see the first post for the complete list of players and for voting instructions):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 136
2 - Earl Strickland - 69
3 - Shane Van Boening - 66
4 - Mike Sigel - 63
5 - Nick Varner - 61
6 - Alex Pagulayan - 53
7 - Johnny Archer - 43
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 42
9 - Buddy Hall - 41
10 - Wu Chia-ching - 40

Thank you for participating,
Dave

 

[PoolBum]

Efren 3

Earl 2

JC

Thanks for the update! Is this a race to 9 or 11?

 

[Luxury]

Shane: 3
Earl: 2


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Marc]

All around no question to me it's Pagulayan, Reyes, SVB, Varner, and Orcollo. In no particular order.

If we talk 9/10 Ball.
There is a 10-15 player tie right away, since a few filipinos,americans and taiwanese qualify for best ever

Archer, Strickland, Yang, Chang Jung Lin, Ko Pin Yi, Wu Jiaqing, Reyes, Bustamante, Varner, Sigel, Orcollo, Biado, Corteza, Chao, Appleton, Immonen, Souquet, Feijen

I think Reyes was very good under pressure and proven to perform his best when the big money was there.
His mental game very very strong, but weak break.

Reyes was no better than Orcollo, Corteza, Bustamante,Chang, ko Pin Yi, Yang at their best.

The best 9/10Ball player Ive ever seen is Chang Jung Lin hands down, with SVB, Orcollo close behind




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[9 Ball Fan]

I'm sure there have also been some strong players who never had the backing, or national exposure to get into this conversation; but they still had the game. They may not have been able to read a book; but they hung around pool halls with gamblers all their life, etc.

At least, I want to believe there was a hustler out there like Fast Eddie; who could have beaten anyone, if given the chance.......

 

[JazzyJeff87]

I'm sure there have also been some strong players who never had the backing, or national exposure to get into this conversation; but they still had the game. They may not have been able to read a book; but they hung around pool halls with gamblers all their life, etc.

At least, I want to believe there was a hustler out there like Fast Eddie; who could have beaten anyone, if given the chance.......

There was a guy once, little known but an absolute killer. Nefarias Bredd was his name.

 

[LeftyIke]

I would put Parica on an equal or superior level to Reyes, and any other Filipino. Nobody really wanted to tangle with Parica, and nobody had to like it, or come out on top! I would love to have been able to see Chang Jun-Lin versus Strickland/Siegel/Hall/Reyes/Lassiter in their prime! However, All-Around, I’d have to take Reyes/VarnerHopkins/Parica, since Harold Worst apparently isn’t allowed to be nominated.

 

[Mick]

Appleton 4 - Just because I feel he is underrepresented on the list.
Pagulayan 1 - Because Alex.

Edit: If I had 2 more points to use I'd give them to Thorsten and Earl. Thorsten because I think he's underappreciated, and Earl because, despite his personal issues, the dude can flat out play.

 

[dr_dave]

Shane: 3
Earl: 2

FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Here's the current Top 10 (see the first post for the complete list of players and for voting instructions):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 136
2 - Earl Strickland - 71
3 - Shane Van Boening - 69
4 - Mike Sigel - 63
5 - Nick Varner - 61
6 - Alex Pagulayan - 53
7 - Johnny Archer - 43
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 42
9 - Buddy Hall - 41
10 - Wu Chia-ching - 40

Thank you for participating,
Dave