Corey getting roasted on Facebook

jasonlaus

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I don't really care.. Perhaps the foreign players are better than American. That's not the point of the whole discussion. The point is to ensure that an American holds a spot in the finals.

I'm also not saying that I 100% agree. However, the premise makes sense, if considering how to grow the sport.
Again, why would foreign players play in an event where all the STRONGEST players were in their half of the bracket?
 

bradsh98

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W
Why would people enter an event like US Open 9 ball or international open if they KNEW they were drawing a champion first round and all the champions KNEW they wouldn't draw one? Blind draw is the only way UNTIL players don't pay an entry fee
Why would it matter?

If you are an amateur player (even a high-level amateur player), you have to realize that you have no chance of winning an event of that magnitude. You know this before you even commit to signing up. So, why play at all, regardless of how the draw is done? It shouldn't matter if you are playing SVB or an APA 4 in your first round. You aren't winning the tournament, either way.. MAYBE, just MAYBE, you can get a decent enough draw to cash in the event... Is that really why you signed up?
 

bradsh98

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Again, why would foreign players play in an event where all the STRONGEST players were in their half of the bracket?
In the spirit of Corey's argument, he states the top 5 American and top 5 Foreign... I don't think that your argument holds water.. If each of these top 5 are seeded throughout each side of the bracket, it should be easier for them. Keep in mind, the remainder of the bracket is blind draw.
 

jasonlaus

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Why would it matter?

If you are an amateur player (even a high-level amateur player), you have to realize that you have no chance of winning an event of that magnitude. You know this before you even commit to signing up. So, why play at all, regardless of how the draw is done? It shouldn't matter if you are playing SVB or an APA 4 in your first round. You aren't winning the tournament, either way.. MAYBE, just MAYBE, you can get a decent enough draw to cash in the event... Is that really why you signed up?
Of course you want a chance to cash in a big event, who wouldn't want to? Why should you have a hard draw when the top pros are guaranteed an easy draw? This isn't rocket science.

BTW, I'm just speaking in general about the "fairness" of forcing a top opponent on a much weaker opponent, I'm not talking about myself.

For me, I can't even play the amateur open at SBE with $5,000 first place, even if I won(which I wouldn't) I would still lose money because I make that working 40hrs, then add the entry fee and hotel on top of it and I lose money that week even if I won the event.
 

jasonlaus

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In the spirit of Corey's argument, he states the top 5 American and top 5 Foreign... I don't think that your argument holds water.. If each of these top 5 are seeded throughout each side of the bracket, it should be easier for them. Keep in mind, the remainder of the bracket is blind draw.
You take away Shane and let's say Filler the next 4 in line from US vs the next 4 in the rest of the world and you won't find a single person that would bet on the next 4 Americans, if you want to bet I'll rip the window off the wall and you can win everything I own
 

bradsh98

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Of course you want a chance to cash in a big event, who wouldn't want to? Why should you have a hard draw when the top pros are guaranteed an easy draw? This isn't rocket science.

BTW, I'm just speaking in general about the "fairness" of forcing a top opponent on a much weaker opponent, I'm not talking about myself.

For me, I can't even play the amateur open at SBE with $5,000 first place, even if I won(which I wouldn't) I would still lose money because I make that working 40hrs, then add the entry fee and hotel on top of it and I lose money that week even if I won the event.
I wasn't referring to you specifically, just a hypothetical.

I see both sides...

As an amateur, it's a cool idea that you can compete, and maybe even cash in a pro event. However, in what other sport would this even be a possibility? In my mind, the exception for billiards suggests that it is a limiting factor to the growth of the sport.

We all know that billiards is on the decline. No one has the solution.. However, the path that we are on isn't working.
For any sport to be successful, there needs to be idols. Why not focus on building them?
 

jasonlaus

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In the spirit of Corey's argument, he states the top 5 American and top 5 Foreign... I don't think that your argument holds water.. If each of these top 5 are seeded throughout each side of the bracket, it should be easier for them. Keep in mind, the remainder of the bracket is blind draw.
We'll guarantee Filler, Shaw, Chang JL, Dennis, and one of the Ko's or Gorst is in your bracket, how happy you gonna be?
 

jasonlaus

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I wasn't referring to you specifically, just a hypothetical.

I see both sides...

As an amateur, it's a cool idea that you can compete, and maybe even cash in a pro event. However, in what other sport would this even be a possibility? In my mind, the exception for billiards suggests that it is a limiting factor to the growth of the sport.

We all know that billiards is on the decline. No one has the solution.. However, the path that we are on isn't working.
For any sport to be successful, there needs to be idols. Why not focus on building them?
The reason you can compete with them is without the amateurs paying entry fees how are they going to make $$$?

That's the difference, all those other sports get big sponsorship $$$ and they don't rely on amateur dead money/entry fees.

I'm sure I can find more ways to say it 😁
 

bradsh98

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We'll guarantee Filler, Shaw, Chang JL, Dennis, and one of the Ko's or Gorst is in your bracket, how happy you gonna be?
If you mean as a player in the event, I suppose I would be just as happy as if I had to play one of the top Americans... Perhaps I am just too realistic in my own expectations, to think that I have a chance to win the event. In my mind, facing one of these difficult opponents on the winner's side in my first round means that I should have a bit easier time on the loser's side of the bracket, knowing that it should mostly be other amateurs over there with me.
 

bradsh98

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The reason you can compete with them is without the amateurs paying entry fees how are they going to make $$$?

That's the difference, all those other sports get big sponsorship $$$ and they don't rely on amateur dead money/entry fees.

I'm sure I can find more ways to say it 😁
So where do you start? How do you grow the sport?

I don't think that throwing money at tournaments, offering free entry fees is how you get there....
I believe that you have to start with creating the idols. From there, you should have a basis for growth.
 
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Cameron Smith

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Seeding is largely because promoters (and fans) want top players to be present towards the end of the tournament and less to do with fairness. Lopsided draws are great for middling players competing in the event but less appealing for promoters and the average fan.
 
The state of US Pool has no great main PRO tour, no tour cards, no Q school, no selection of big sponsors interested. Most of these "Pro" tourneys are filled with amateur's who come there to play with the best, gamble, buy people in the auction and maybe the off chance of getting a good draw and sneaking into the money (Yes lots of people think that way, which is sad but true) Seeding is effectively tapping on glass of the dead money these pros are desperate for (because there are tiny amounts up for distribution among the best)

Seeding is a ridiculous discussion without an actual relevant amount of money on the line, a ranking system that includes prize winning on the tour and probably other select events like the US open and such + other power rankings. Fargorate is a mediocre method at best for top tier players and ranking (by itself). You would also need big finishing events that with large payouts, pressure filled matches that people want to pay to watch..............The pool culture in America supports none of this.

The US pool scene is a league scene, all the other stuff is outlying. The culture around most of the events is that of smokers, degenerates, scumbags, many shady backers. Imagine not understanding why very few want to watch it on TV, and sponsors outside the pool world have zero interest in making American pool into a legitimate thing.

Also there are a small amount of players that treat pool like a job, putting in the immense practice, mental prep, physical preparation that entails.....most of the ones that do are NOT American. So guess what the cream rises and it isn't American for the most part...It is not surprising at all. If you can't make enough money at it, well then you have decisions to make with your life.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
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Corey suggests seeding the top 5 Americans through the top side of the bracket, and the top 5 foreigners in the bottom side of the bracket. The separation in each half of the bracket ensures the best odds at seeing the highest level of talent in the later rounds, while also ensuring that at least 1 American will have a seat in the finals of the American hosted event.
No, this doesn't ensure the best chance at seeing the most elite players in the latter rounds. All it does is stack the deck in favor of the American contingent, which has just four of the world's top 75 players based on Fargo Rate. Unless they earn their spot in the finals just the same way as anyone else, I don't want to see anyone in particular get to the late rounds, regardless of nationality. Let the cream rise to the top.

For those that cannot reach the late rounds in big events unless the draw gives them an unearned advantage, I say hit the practice table.
 

jasonlaus

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I wasn't referring to you specifically, just a hypothetical.

I see both sides...

As an amateur, it's a cool idea that you can compete, and maybe even cash in a pro event. However, in what other sport would this even be a possibility? In my mind, the exception for billiards suggests that it is a limiting factor to the growth of the sport.

We all know that billiards is on the decline. No one has the solution.. However, the path that we are on isn't working.
For any sport to be successful, there needs to be idols. Why not focus on building them?
The reason you can compete with them is without the amateurs paying entry fees how are they going to make $$$?

That's the difference, all those other sports get big sponsorship $$$ and they don't rely on amateur dead money/entry fees.

I'm sure I can find more ways to say it 😁
So where do you start? How do you grow the sport?

I don't think that throwing money at tournaments, offering free entry fees is how you get there....
I believe that you have to start with creating the idols. From there, you should have a basis for growth.
Pool is fun to play, not to watch except for a few of us,, and when it's played very well it looks too easy - there is no way to grow the sport, it is what it is unfortunately.
 

jasonlaus

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Huh?? Every so-called 'bet' you throw out there is an absolute lock. Taking the top ten non-US players is really taking a chance. whatever.
Yes, it's as stupid as suggesting players get seeded this way. That was my point
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
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Why would it matter?

If you are an amateur player (even a high-level amateur player), you have to realize that you have no chance of winning an event of that magnitude. You know this before you even commit to signing up. So, why play at all, regardless of how the draw is done? It shouldn't matter if you are playing SVB or an APA 4 in your first round. You aren't winning the tournament, either way.. MAYBE, just MAYBE, you can get a decent enough draw to cash in the event... Is that really why you signed up?

Becauuuuse, you want the experience, the seasoning, collect some war stories, and just maybe shitout and hit a gear at the most oportune time.

But IMO seeding just gives the house too big an edge. I mean, you want the vague illusion of a chance.

Lou Figueroa
 

ghost ball

justnum survivor
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Little League Baseball World Series does exactly that. One bracket for OUS and one bracket for US only. The only advantage I see is good tv ratings and not the two best teams competing for the trophy.
 
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