CTE Stepping Cue Ball.

JB Cases

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... except nobody has shown that CTE is better than ghost ball which has about one step. Maybe it is for "Pete Lowenstein" but that is hardly statistically significant. In fact, there isn't any proof that "Pete" even plays pool. He lies about his name so why should we believe anything else?
What would you suggest might be a way to show that? I have shown that CTE is better than ghost ball but my results are anecdotal.

You even did a video where you yourself figured out that an objective aiming reference worked for a shot that you were trying. Once you found the objective aiming line you made the shot. You didn't indicate that you were using Ghost Ball.

 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What purpose did you have to inject ANYTHING about Chinese or Japanese "policy" in a thread about Aiming in pool? Don't attack people with the stated intention of causing them physical harm and it is a near certainty that those people will not stab you anywhere.
I don't know the answer to your question and don't even have enough interest to scroll up and find out. The only thing I am going to attack is a bowl of popcorn later.
 

Submerge

New member
In Stan's youtube showing the stepping effect he lines up the cb with a rail diamond, placing the cb about 1.5 diamonds from the rail. He said at that distance stepping moved center ball perception by half the width of a rail diamond. That's not half a diamond as in half of 12.5" inches, but half of the diamond itself, which on my table would be 1/4 inch. I tried myself and came up with the same results awhile back. I don't have the exact measurements in front of me but IIRC it worked out that stepping the cb with the eyes made a difference of about 0.6 degrees. I don't see any reason this value would change other than distance between the eyes and the cue ball. Note that this demonstration from Stan was done without turning the head at all, only the eyes.

Regarding the bold, CTE "worked" just the same when stepping was just a twinkle in Stan's eye. The two fudge factors that have remained for the entire life of CTE are the perception of two lines and the pivot. Seeing the pocket along with the ob/cb/shaft in the shot picture identifies the target. The two variables are there to play with as needed, and apparently subconsciously.

FWIW...
Hey Dan. There are actually 3 aiming lines to use if you include (and one should) parallax line. This is typically seen with the center of two eyes when in full stance with head poked. Also seen at ball address, but to keep the perspective you have to poke the head because the eyes have to span a smaller distance when closer to ball.

Also observe that the "pivot" always occurs, for every shot even if the angle is exactly 15 degrees for example. Even for straight-ins which are 15 Outside perceptions.

Another way to do it is to line up the cue to hit the perfect sight point at full address (cue is on the sightline). If a left cut, the right eye sees the sightline right down the center of the cue ball to the sight point on the OB. The left eye notices and sees the aim line which is the left edge of the cue ball to the correct spot on the OB depending on perception angle. The parallax line splits the difference and is seen with both eyes.

When in this position, shift the bridge V to the inside or outside (left or right) based on the perception about 1/2 cue tip width. Then with the V in that position turn the cue back to center cue ball and stroke. You can observe the slight offset on the OB if you want, but have to trust it. The new shot line is called the NISL (No Imagination Shot Line). The moving of the V steps the cue ball. I also glance at the inner or outer edge of the cue ball for a visual stepping to confirm the V placement.

Much easier to practice with the CB and OB fairly close (short shots). Gotta watch Stan's videos, and get his book (will be the best $100 spent on pool training, in my opinion). Of course it takes hours and hours at the table to understand and make this happen. It's all about defining the center of the cue ball that pockets the ball. The target is center cue ball. I don't even look at the pockets once I determine the perception angle to use.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey Dan. There are actually 3 aiming lines to use if you include (and one should) parallax line. This is typically seen with the center of two eyes when in full stance with head poked. Also seen at ball address, but to keep the perspective you have to poke the head because the eyes have to span a smaller distance when closer to ball.

Also observe that the "pivot" always occurs, for every shot even if the angle is exactly 15 degrees for example. Even for straight-ins which are 15 Outside perceptions.

Another way to do it is to line up the cue to hit the perfect sight point at full address (cue is on the sightline). If a left cut, the right eye sees the sightline right down the center of the cue ball to the sight point on the OB. The left eye notices and sees the aim line which is the left edge of the cue ball to the correct spot on the OB depending on perception angle. The parallax line splits the difference and is seen with both eyes.

When in this position, shift the bridge V to the inside or outside (left or right) based on the perception about 1/2 cue tip width. Then with the V in that position turn the cue back to center cue ball and stroke. You can observe the slight offset on the OB if you want, but have to trust it. The new shot line is called the NISL (No Imagination Shot Line). The moving of the V steps the cue ball. I also glance at the inner or outer edge of the cue ball for a visual stepping to confirm the V placement.

Much easier to practice with the CB and OB fairly close (short shots). Gotta watch Stan's videos, and get his book (will be the best $100 spent on pool training, in my opinion). Of course it takes hours and hours at the table to understand and make this happen. It's all about defining the center of the cue ball that pockets the ball. The target is center cue ball. I don't even look at the pockets once I determine the perception angle to use.
With all due respect, this is a good example of flim flam logic. What about anything you just said connects the cue ball and object ball to the pocket? The usual reply is "I don't know but it just works." Yes, my jelly bean method works, too. Put two jelly beans in your left pocket and tap them after every shot. Practice pocketing balls with great attention to detail and in about 6 months you'll be playing pretty sporty, assuming you have a decent stroke. Success has nothing to do with rote learning over hours at the table. It's the jelly beans that makes it work... honestly!
 

Submerge

New member
With all due respect, this is a good example of flim flam logic. What about anything you just said connects the cue ball and object ball to the pocket? The usual reply is "I don't know but it just works." Yes, my jelly bean method works, too. Put two jelly beans in your left pocket and tap them after every shot. Practice pocketing balls with great attention to detail and in about 6 months you'll be playing pretty sporty, assuming you have a decent stroke. Success has nothing to do with rote learning over hours at the table. It's the jelly beans that makes it work... honestly!
What connects to the pocket is the art of the correct perception. Without that you cannot connect to the pocket. But if, for example you know by looking at the shot that it‘s a 30 degree cut, then you can remove the pocket and just make the object ball travel 30 degrees off the cue ball path and will make the ball. There’s no film flam here. It ALL starts with the proper perception when standing at ball address (back from the table). In fact, you can hide the pocket with a small curtain and still make the shots once you know what the perception is. The pocket becomes irrelevant in the process once the proper shot line is determined.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What connects to the pocket is the art of the correct perception. Without that you cannot connect to the pocket. But if, for example you know by looking at the shot that it‘s a 30 degree cut, then you can remove the pocket and just make the object ball travel 30 degrees off the cue ball path and will make the ball. There’s no film flam here. It ALL starts with the proper perception when standing at ball address (back from the table). In fact, you can hide the pocket with a small curtain and still make the shots once you know what the perception is. The pocket becomes irrelevant in the process once the proper shot line is determined.
... and how do you know the shot will go "by looking at" it?
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
In fact, you can hide the pocket with a small curtain and still make the shots once you know what the perception is. The pocket becomes irrelevant in the process once the proper shot line is determined.
With all due respect, this curtain thing is the biggest crock I've ever heard. It's praised like it's a miraculous thing. Once you find the aim to pocket the ball, only a ripe beginner is looking at the pocket anyway. If you look at the pocket it's a sure sign of crappy fundamentals and trying to aim "on the fly" while down on a shot. Take the aim. There is no pocket now. Put a curtain up, put flashing neon lights in the pocket, even put a picture of the 1994 playboy centerfold in the pocket! If you see any of that I have news for you, it's time to learn to aim properly, work on your fundamentals, and know what your eyes should be doing on a shot. Life pro tip: The pocket doesn't move and you shouldn't be looking at it while down anyway.

If you're looking at the pocket while down you better get up and re-chalk and actually get set up on the shot correctly. Sure, you can fudge it a little and play the "too thick too thin" game, but it just means you need to hit more balls and learn from the experience. Not looking at the pocket isn't some "CTE secret," it's just what you should be doing if you understand any type of aiming.

Now if I'm playing someone for money or clout I hope they look at the pocket, the OB, the CB half a dozen times while down on a shot. Hopefully they are deciding which ball is the real one and which one is from the beer goggles. Strategize while down, figure your leave while down, think about what you're having for supper, feel that back pain, are your shoes tied? Wouldn't the recliner feel good right now? Oh yeah, that new show on hulu is supposed to be good... Get those eyes and that mind wandering all over the place, it just ups the odds for the opponent. ;) :)
 

Submerge

New member
I'm glad you can shoot balls without looking at the pocket. You are obviously an advanced player. Us mere mortals need a system to learn. I was missing everything with ghost ball and was truly inconsistent. With Stan's CTE I have confidence, I can see the lines, I can see the center cue ball target clearly. It's working for me and that's all that counts. There may be 8 ways to get to the supermarket. I don't criticize anyone for taking the route the works best for them. I know there are a lot of people truly interested in understanding Stan's CTE system. As a learning player I'd be happy to try and answer questions anyone might have. I've been corresponding with Stan a few times per month with questions. He's gracious enough to answer each email.

So if your method is winning you money and tournaments, great for you! But it's not a one size fits all. Happy New Year.
David
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm glad you can shoot balls without looking at the pocket. You are obviously an advanced player. Us mere mortals need a system to learn. I was missing everything with ghost ball and was truly inconsistent.
Didn't you say in another post that sometimes on follow through your cue would be off by as much as an inch? That probably had a lot more to do with missing than your aim.
With Stan's CTE I have confidence, I can see the lines, I can see the center cue ball target clearly.
Confidence is important. It is the reason placebos work.
It's working for me and that's all that counts.
And there it is, as predicted.
There may be 8 ways to get to the supermarket. I don't criticize anyone for taking the route the works best for them. I know there are a lot of people truly interested in understanding Stan's CTE system. As a learning player I'd be happy to try and answer questions anyone might have. I've been corresponding with Stan a few times per month with questions. He's gracious enough to answer each email.

So if your method is winning you money and tournaments, great for you! But it's not a one size fits all. Happy New Year.
David
I'm glad you are playing better and are happy with your development. Please refrain from using the BS jargon in Stan's book as if it means something because it sends people down an imaginary path to improvement. Some seem to develop quicker with CTE, possibly because the structure forces them to be more careful when they shoot. In any case, I can see you are going to ignore all the experienced voices from people here who have been playing decades. You've already taken the blue pill and are trying to pass them out to others.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I'm glad you can shoot balls without looking at the pocket. You are obviously an advanced player. Us mere mortals need a system to learn. I was missing everything with ghost ball and was truly inconsistent. With Stan's CTE I have confidence, I can see the lines, I can see the center cue ball target clearly. It's working for me and that's all that counts. There may be 8 ways to get to the supermarket. I don't criticize anyone for taking the route the works best for them. I know there are a lot of people truly interested in understanding Stan's CTE system. As a learning player I'd be happy to try and answer questions anyone might have. I've been corresponding with Stan a few times per month with questions. He's gracious enough to answer each email.

So if your method is winning you money and tournaments, great for you! But it's not a one size fits all. Happy New Year.
David
It's great it's working for you. Different strokes for different folks. All I was getting at was a curtain covering a pocket proves nothing at all. If you aim the ball correctly through whatever system it will go, with a curtain or whatever. CTE tries to act like covering a pocket with a curtain is some astounding thing. It's not. It just means the person aimed correctly, and that isn't only the realm of CTE.
 

Submerge

New member
... and how do you know the shot will go "by looking at" it?
Nope, you hear it go "plunk" in the pocket behind the curtain :) But you can the path if, for example, the curtain is half way between OB and pocket. Watch Stan in the video a few posts above.
 

Submerge

New member
Didn't you say in another post that sometimes on follow through your cue would be off by as much as an inch? That probably had a lot more to do with missing than your aim.

Confidence is important. It is the reason placebos work.

And there it is, as predicted.

I'm glad you are playing better and are happy with your development. Please refrain from using the BS jargon in Stan's book as if it means something because it sends people down an imaginary path to improvement. Some seem to develop quicker with CTE, possibly because the structure forces them to be more careful when they shoot. In any case, I can see you are going to ignore all the experienced voices from people here who have been playing decades. You've already taken the blue pill and are trying to pass them out to others.
I discovered the poor cue stroke while working with the CTE system. Wasn't really noticeable on the shorter shots you start out on. As I expanded the distance there was more error observed. Perfect perception and CTE technique (at least as perceived by me) but the cue ball wasn't hitting its intended target on the object ball.

I apologize for the CTE jargon. It's just a way to communicate the situation for anyone studying the system. I'm all in with Stan's method and teachings. My improvement has been significant. Trying to match proper contact points on the cue and object balls is an effort in futility, at least for me. Just wasn't seeing it that way.

The goal is to enjoy the game more. Simple as that. And that I am. Hope you shoot straight in the new year with whatever method you choose.
 

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's great it's working for you. Different strokes for different folks. All I was getting at was a curtain covering a pocket proves nothing at all. If you aim the ball correctly through whatever system it will go, with a curtain or whatever. CTE tries to act like covering a pocket with a curtain is some astounding thing. It's not. It just means the person aimed correctly, and that isn't only the realm of CTE.
sounds reasonable until you ask one simple question,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, without seeing the target pocket, with a curtain up, what exactly are you then aiming AT? Why not post up a little video of you shooting a dozen balls in a row to a blind pocket to prove your point.
 

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I apologize for the CTE jargon. It's just a way to communicate the situation for anyone studying the system. I'm all in with Stan's method and teachings.
I wouldn't apologize for sh^t, the CTE "jargon" is all perfectly explained in the book, word for word, for the sole purpose of the user relating their use in the teachings in the book. Stan isn't re-writing Webster. He could have just as easily defined things as colors or numbers. These people will not try the system as taught because then their only argument would have to be it works, even though they don't quite understand why. They would much rather try and confuse you to the point that you start to break it by doing it wrong. The jargon they speak of is simply identifiers for the method of Stans teaching and are simply irrelevent to anything else.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I discovered the poor cue stroke while working with the CTE system.
That's great. So you changed two independent variables at the same time. You started stroking straighter and you changed how you aim. It is impossible to tell whether your improvement was due to the straight stroke or the magic aiming system.

Wasn't really noticeable on the shorter shots you start out on. As I expanded the distance there was more error observed. Perfect perception and CTE technique (at least as perceived by me) but the cue ball wasn't hitting its intended target on the object ball.

I apologize for the CTE jargon. It's just a way to communicate the situation for anyone studying the system. I'm all in with Stan's method and teachings. My improvement has been significant. Trying to match proper contact points on the cue and object balls is an effort in futility, at least for me. Just wasn't seeing it that way.
Stan has his own language and that's fine. It just creates arguments because that jargon masks reality.

The goal is to enjoy the game more. Simple as that. And that I am. Hope you shoot straight in the new year with whatever method you choose.

Obviously, you are free to enjoy playing however you like, and nobody can tell you otherwise if you are improving. Some of us draw the line at spreading misinformation here on AZ. If you were talking about covid like you are talking about CTE on youtube they'd have suspended your account by now! :) )
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
sounds reasonable until you ask one simple question,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, without seeing the target pocket, with a curtain up, what exactly are you then aiming AT? Why not post up a little video of you shooting a dozen balls in a row to a blind pocket to prove your point.
Re-read in case you missed it. I said, take the shot picture, then the pocket shouldn't be in your mind. I never said I wouldn't take aim at the OB into the pocket before the curtain was placed. I said once you have the shot line you shouldn't be looking at the pocket.

Since you seem to be a curtain CTE proponent, why don't you take a dozen shots with a curtain over the table, then I'll set up the same shots, one take, no camera trickery and actually aim them. After I get the aim a helper can pull the curtain. Sounds fair doesn't it? We can even do the CTE cheerleader thing and bet $12 on it, $1 per ball. Let me know if you want to take on this bet. Whoever makes more balls, me taking aim, then putting a curtain up, or you putting a curtain up then relying on solely CTE curtain skill to make the balls. No trickery, just simple clean straight in or cut shots.

Yip yip yip!
 

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Re-read in case you missed it. I said, take the shot picture, then the pocket shouldn't be in your mind. I never said I wouldn't take aim at the OB into the pocket before the curtain was placed. I said once you have the shot line you shouldn't be looking at the pocket.

Since you seem to be a curtain CTE proponent, why don't you take a dozen shots with a curtain over the table, then I'll set up the same shots, one take, no camera trickery and actually aim them. After I get the aim a helper can pull the curtain. Sounds fair doesn't it? We can even do the CTE cheerleader thing and bet $12 on it, $1 per ball. Let me know if you want to take on this bet. Whoever makes more balls, me taking aim, then putting a curtain up, or you putting a curtain up then relying on solely CTE curtain skill to make the balls. No trickery, just simple clean straight in or cut shots.

Yip yip yip!
I actually have done this several times in the past, although I never needed a pocket reference first and never moved the curtain between shots. Put the curtain up, throw the ball on the table, and shoot the shot. No need to peep, I can hear them go in. Balls at random positions, no marking the table for ball positions.

But you want to remove the curtain to aim, then what is the purpose of the curtain again?
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
But you want to remove the curtain to aim, then what is the purpose of the curtain again?
Never take a bet without a spot. That and the fact that I never said I would or desired to put a curtain over the pocket before taking aim.

I said that after you take aim you don't have to look at the pocket. If you're looking at the pocket after aiming you're focusing on the wrong thing. I have the CTE book and I know that Stan never says to look at a pocket after aiming/while shooting. Perceptions ABC and pivot. He does not say to look at the pocket while pivoting or taking in the proper sight perception. He does not say to look at the pocket while shooting.

If you can read it again, you'll notice I never talked bad about CTE, simply said the curtain thing means nothing in the real world. I said the curtain thing was a crock. I'm not saying it can't be done, but as the poster I replied to said:
Submerge said:


In fact, you can hide the pocket with a small curtain and still make the shots once you know what the perception is. The pocket becomes irrelevant in the process once the proper shot line is determined.
The pocket also becomes irrelevant once I determine the proper shot line with my aiming system/style.
 

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Never take a bet without a spot. That and the fact that I never said I would or desired to put a curtain over the pocket before taking aim.

I said that after you take aim you don't have to look at the pocket. If you're looking at the pocket after aiming you're focusing on the wrong thing. I have the CTE book and I know that Stan never says to look at a pocket after aiming/while shooting. Perceptions ABC and pivot. He does not say to look at the pocket while pivoting or taking in the proper sight perception. He does not say to look at the pocket while shooting.

If you can read it again, you'll notice I never talked bad about CTE, simply said the curtain thing means nothing in the real world. I said the curtain thing was a crock. I'm not saying it can't be done, but as the poster I replied to said:

The pocket also becomes irrelevant once I determine the proper shot line with my aiming system/s

Never take a bet without a spot. That and the fact that I never said I would or desired to put a curtain over the pocket before taking aim.

I said that after you take aim you don't have to look at the pocket. If you're looking at the pocket after aiming you're focusing on the wrong thing. I have the CTE book and I know that Stan never says to look at a pocket after aiming/while shooting. Perceptions ABC and pivot. He does not say to look at the pocket while pivoting or taking in the proper sight perception. He does not say to look at the pocket while shooting.

If you can read it again, you'll notice I never talked bad about CTE, simply said the curtain thing means nothing in the real world. I said the curtain thing was a crock. I'm not saying it can't be done, but as the poster I replied to said:

The pocket also becomes irrelevant once I determine the proper shot line with my aiming system/style.
I don't blame you for not doing it on an equal basis, full curtain all the time, cause I don't believe you'd have much chance honestly without seeing the pockets.

The whole curtain thing started years ago when Stan first started talking and making videos about CTE and a group of people all said it bull and he was subconsciously adjusting after addressing the cueball, so he put the curtain up to prove that was not the case. It doesn't matter what he says, that same group remains and tries to pick it all apart.

The object of CTE is to pocket balls, Stan has never changed that. He has over the years shown not only does it meet that objective, he has shown about 5 different ways to do it, all with the same initial basic perceptions.

That was just never enough for some people.

The best thing he ever did was get off of this forum and shut that group out of his life.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I don't blame you for not doing it on an equal basis, full curtain all the time, cause I don't believe you'd have much chance honestly without seeing the pockets.

The whole curtain thing started years ago when Stan first started talking and making videos about CTE and a group of people all said it bull and he was subconsciously adjusting after addressing the cueball, so he put the curtain up to prove that was not the case. It doesn't matter what he says, that same group remains and tries to pick it all apart.

The object of CTE is to pocket balls, Stan has never changed that. He has over the years shown not only does it meet that objective, he has shown about 5 different ways to do it, all with the same initial basic perceptions.

That was just never enough for some people.

The best thing he ever did was get off of this forum and shut that group out of his life.
I know a tiny bit of the history. I also know that there's more than one way to make balls. There are different aiming systems, different perceptions and I've tried many. What is working for me now is working for me. Whatever works for the person shooting the balls, more power to them. I'm honestly not a CTE basher, hell I even bought the book and the additional cue ball. The system works, but I found one that takes way less rebuilding of my entire game. Would I be better switching to CTE? Maybe, but I can't invest the months of downtime and getting destroyed until it clicks. I play pool competitively with friends who are serious about pool for 25-35 hours or more a week. No time for losing, even temporary or I'll never hear the end of it! 😅 I'm just not in a place in my life to switch aiming systems, even if I do see potential in them. I tried some of the basic CTE stuff and it works. The point is, I'm not a CTE basher but basing your game off how well you can pocket balls with a curtain means very little. Sure, it's a neat trick, but that's what it is. Even if you're a master at shooting behind a curtain, it's surely not how you play in a tournament, league night etc.
 
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