CTE Stepping Cue Ball.

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
@JB Cases , if you ever make your way to Iowa, hit me up. I'd love to shoot some stick with you. No high dollar bets, just some real pool and camaraderie. Same offer goes for @Patrick Johnson . You guys.. this is pool, why all the hatred? I guess "Earl" had it right, "Pool is a beautiful game played by ugly people." ;):)

For real, I'd hate to think of myself as a mediator, but why keep up the fight? There is 110% no chance of an agreement. Just let it go and hit some balls. It's called PLAYING pool. Become the shot. Become the game. You've both done it through different methods. Have some playful fun and just ignore the OTHER exists. No one cares, no one who can afford $100 for a book will miss $100, even if it's a complete sham. I don't think it is a sham. It might not pass 100% objective science but who the hell cares. There's no pool book that will pass 100% scientific objective measurements, even the physics guys. Pool is a beautiful game, stop and smell the roses instead of wading through chest deep shit of your own creation.

💕 The GAME, not the 🐂:poop:! :)

It's actually more than that. It's business, too. At $100 per book let's say 3/4 of the facebook page has the book. That's 2500 people or $250,000 in sales. Now imagine you are a competitor selling your own instructional book but your sales are lagging because some guy out there is trashing every other method of aiming by claiming his is the only professional system and is objective and the Filipino's all probably use it and every top pro might even use it without knowing about it. Throw in a handful of unfounded claims and you start getting into false advertising territory. So, just because it doesn't mean anything to you does not mean it isn't harmful to someone else.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
It's actually more than that. It's business, too.
Even more than the business - it's misinformation about how aiming and aiming systems work in pool, being touted over and over here on this pool discussion forum. Take that back to your Facebook fanboy club or expect a rebuttal here.

pj
chgo
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's actually more than that. It's business, too. At $100 per book let's say 3/4 of the facebook page has the book. That's 2500 people or $250,000 in sales. Now imagine you are a competitor selling your own instructional book but your sales are lagging because some guy out there is trashing every other method of aiming by claiming his is the only professional system and is objective and the Filipino's all probably use it and every top pro might even use it without knowing about it. Throw in a handful of unfounded claims and you start getting into false advertising territory. So, just because it doesn't mean anything to you does not mean it isn't harmful to someone else.
No one is trashing other aiming systems and the unfounded claims are being made here by 3 people who don’t know there ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to those systems. Oh and isn’t that exactly what you are trying to do, be harmful to someone else.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No one is trashing other aiming systems and the unfounded claims are being made here by 3 people who don’t know there ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to those systems. Oh and isn’t that exactly what you are trying to do, be harmful to someone else.
Criticizing other ways to aim was a staple ingredient of pro CTE AZ posters for years. Stan usually said his method is the best through use of euphemisms (look it up, cookie). He'd say that CTE is a "professional" system, which means the others are not. He always says playing with an offset visual is the way to play and chides others as being "nosers." I will say there have been fewer attacks lately since the book is being sold but that's just good marketing. I don't know what the book says about whether CTE is the best way to play or not, but I am certain the book contains falsehoods that Stan just doesn't realize are such.
 

tonythetiger583

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
@JB Cases , if you ever make your way to Iowa, hit me up. I'd love to shoot some stick with you. No high dollar bets, just some real pool and camaraderie. Same offer goes for @Patrick Johnson . You guys.. this is pool, why all the hatred? I guess "Earl" had it right, "Pool is a beautiful game played by ugly people." ;):)

For real, I'd hate to think of myself as a mediator, but why keep up the fight? There is 110% no chance of an agreement. Just let it go and hit some balls. It's called PLAYING pool. Become the shot. Become the game. You've both done it through different methods. Have some playful fun and just ignore the OTHER exists. No one cares, no one who can afford $100 for a book will miss $100, even if it's a complete sham. I don't think it is a sham. It might not pass 100% objective science but who the hell cares. There's no pool book that will pass 100% scientific objective measurements, even the physics guys. Pool is a beautiful game, stop and smell the roses instead of wading through chest deep shit of your own creation.

💕 The GAME, not the 🐂:poop:! :)
My biggest gripe with CTE is how inaccessible the information is. I bought the dvds and I bought the book and I joined the Facebook group and learned the secret handshake.

Not everyone learns in the same way, and not everyone enjoys the same teaching style.

It's been 20 years and there's only 3 types of information about CTE.

1. Sourced from Stan. Usually in the form of 30min videos that involve 2min of the actual information, bookended by some sort of sermon.

2. People quoting Stan with one of like 12 pre-approved messages.

3. Someone who doesn't know CTE, but has to include the words "My Way" somewhere in the title.

My opinion is dont worry about the naysayers, because trying to even find out what CTE is about is already obnoxiously off-putting.

Also stop adding more systems on top of it as if it makes a system more robust.
Basic Pivot CTE, fine that one makes sense. Pro one without the bridge pivot, sure. Now disguised pivot? and Half-Ball pivot.
And calling something the No Imagination Shot Line, doesn't make it sound more credible and actually makes it sound more suspicious. May as well call it the Totally-not-made-up Line.

I've been supplementing my training with hours of staring at 3D images in an effort to figure this stuff out. That's how desperate I'm getting.

how-do-magic-eye-pictures-work_5.jpg
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Criticizing other ways to aim was a staple ingredient of pro CTE AZ posters for years. Stan usually said his method is the best through use of euphemisms (look it up, cookie). He'd say that CTE is a "professional" system, which means the others are not. He always says playing with an offset visual is the way to play and chides others as being "nosers." I will say there have been fewer attacks lately since the book is being sold but that's just good marketing. I don't know what the book says about whether CTE is the best way to play or not, but I am certain the book contains falsehoods that Stan just doesn't realize are such.
So CTE users can’t have an opinion and say CTE is the best aiming system and the best way to play. It’s against the rules to say aiming with an offset visual is the only way to play. Saying CTE is the best is not a criticism of other systems, it’s an opinion by people who use CTE. If anything bad was said about another system it was backed up with solid reasoning. Something I might add we have never seen from the people that criticize CTE. There are no falsehoods in the book and it’s pretty shitty for you to say that.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My biggest gripe with CTE is how inaccessible the information is. I bought the dvds and I bought the book and I joined the Facebook group and learned the secret handshake.

Not everyone learns in the same way, and not everyone enjoys the same teaching style.

It's been 20 years and there's only 3 types of information about CTE.

1. Sourced from Stan. Usually in the form of 30min videos that involve 2min of the actual information, bookended by some sort of sermon.

2. People quoting Stan with one of like 12 pre-approved messages.

3. Someone who doesn't know CTE, but has to include the words "My Way" somewhere in the title.

My opinion is dont worry about the naysayers, because trying to even find out what CTE is about is already obnoxiously off-putting.

Also stop adding more systems on top of it as if it makes a system more robust.
Basic Pivot CTE, fine that one makes sense. Pro one without the bridge pivot, sure. Now disguised pivot? and Half-Ball pivot.
And calling something the No Imagination Shot Line, doesn't make it sound more credible and actually makes it sound more suspicious. May as well call it the Totally-not-made-up Line.

I've been supplementing my training with hours of staring at 3D images in an effort to figure this stuff out. That's how desperate I'm getting.

View attachment 610147
Great post. I have to say, though, that you knew all of this and bought the book anyway?

I had the same reaction to the NISL. lol. The Totally Not Made Up Line I Really Mean It This Time line, or TNMULIRMITT line.

A little disappointed there was not something cool like a pinup girl in that 3D, but cool nonetheless.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So CTE users can’t have an opinion and say CTE is the best aiming system and the best way to play. It’s against the rules to say aiming with an offset visual is the only way to play. Saying CTE is the best is not a criticism of other systems, it’s an opinion by people who use CTE. If anything bad was said about another system it was backed up with solid reasoning. Something I might add we have never seen from the people that criticize CTE. There are no falsehoods in the book and it’s pretty shitty for you to say that.
If you find the chapters dealing with CTE and rip them out I'm sure the book has valuable information. I'm not joking about that. Aside from this CTE stuff Stan has a lot of knowledge to share. To bad he got punked by Hal but in the end he made something of it with his book.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
It's actually more than that. It's business, too. At $100 per book let's say 3/4 of the facebook page has the book. That's 2500 people or $250,000 in sales. Now imagine you are a competitor selling your own instructional book but your sales are lagging because some guy out there is trashing every other method of aiming by claiming his is the only professional system and is objective and the Filipino's all probably use it and every top pro might even use it without knowing about it. Throw in a handful of unfounded claims and you start getting into false advertising territory. So, just because it doesn't mean anything to you does not mean it isn't harmful to someone else.
I guess if you have a competing product and feel this way, the thing to do would be to lawyer up and take them to court. Isn't that the American way of business? It's an aiming system. I have about 20 pool books I've bought over the years, most claiming to be "the best" book on the subject. Are any of them the best? Not really, that's not how pool books work. You get it, read it, practice the things discussed, use what works, forget what doesn't. Then you put the book on a shelf and it sits collecting dust for the next 30 years. Chances are unless you frequent the aiming forum here and see all the drama, you would never see or hear of CTE. I mean, honestly, how deep do you have to dig to find this "monster" that is rampaging over all competitors? It's not in Barnes and Noble, it's not suggested to you on Amazon, it's not even on eBay unless someone happens to sell a copy. Chances are, if you're looking for a book on pool this is putting out such a low signal, you'll never even hear about it. But honestly, the drama is probably the only thing that even keeps the subject of CTE popping up. That and YouTube algorithms. I honestly get your point, but other than having a fun verbal joust and riling each other up, does "fighting the good fight" against CTE really accomplish anything? :unsure:

Even more than the business - it's misinformation about how aiming and aiming systems work in pool, being touted over and over here on this pool discussion forum. Take that back to your Facebook fanboy club or expect a rebuttal here.

pj
chgo
Even if CTE was completely false, it does the thing any aiming system does, gets you paying attention and actually giving attention to the shot at hand. Every aiming system I've ever heard of requires adjustments. Every one either works mathematically or through perceptions but they all require something of the user to actually work. Your rebuttal makes sense, I'm not saying it doesn't, but if you can't get something from the book, you're not trying hard enough. I guess if you can't parse good info from bad at the table, maybe you aren't a pool player. If a casual player gets wrong info from the book and uses it, chances are it won't really matter. They will either get serious enough to get that it's wrong, or they will at least have a framework other than just winging it. I'm not saying it's wrong to correct bad info when someone asks, but hot damn. I guess it's fun to have a decades long sparing partner to "debate" with or something. :)

My biggest gripe with CTE is how inaccessible the information is. I bought the dvds and I bought the book and I joined the Facebook group and learned the secret handshake.

Not everyone learns in the same way, and not everyone enjoys the same teaching style.

It's been 20 years and there's only 3 types of information about CTE.

1. Sourced from Stan. Usually in the form of 30min videos that involve 2min of the actual information, bookended by some sort of sermon.

2. People quoting Stan with one of like 12 pre-approved messages.

3. Someone who doesn't know CTE, but has to include the words "My Way" somewhere in the title.

My opinion is dont worry about the naysayers, because trying to even find out what CTE is about is already obnoxiously off-putting.

Also stop adding more systems on top of it as if it makes a system more robust.
Basic Pivot CTE, fine that one makes sense. Pro one without the bridge pivot, sure. Now disguised pivot? and Half-Ball pivot.
And calling something the No Imagination Shot Line, doesn't make it sound more credible and actually makes it sound more suspicious. May as well call it the Totally-not-made-up Line.

I've been supplementing my training with hours of staring at 3D images in an effort to figure this stuff out. That's how desperate I'm getting.

Great post! If you really want to know how to aim, get your stance right. Once you do that, look at the OB and burn it into your mind. Now shoot it. Don't move until the balls stop. Observe. Always observe. If you miss, try to understand why. Could you hit a basket in basketball if you were facing backwards, or turned 45 degrees off the shot line while standing with your feet all twisted up? No one wants to hear this, but it took me 30 years of stubbornly playing "my way" to actually learn this hidden advice. Pool is about stance and fundamentals, aiming is far down the list, you just have to see the shot to aim. That's way less difficult than burning correct stance and alignment into your muscle memory. Dr. Dave's little stance dance is also great. It either feels right or it doesn't. If it doesn't feel right, don't shoot. You're not on a shot clock and nobody is going to think less of you for doing a little shuffle to get right.

Here's the other video you need. Get that stuff down and aiming suddenly means much less in the grand scheme of things. Learn how 2 1/4" spheres react. Learn collision dynamics and contact points. Understand that pool balls are spheres and learn how spheres react. Learn how to make spheres go straight even when off angle. Learn this stuff by careful observation and experimentation. That's the secret to pool, no aiming system, no matter how objective or subjective will teach you these things.

Visualization from the proper stance/alignment is more powerful than any aiming system.
 
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cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you find the chapters dealing with CTE and rip them out I'm sure the book has valuable information. I'm not joking about that. Aside from this CTE stuff Stan has a lot of knowledge to share. To bad he got punked by Hal but in the end he made something of it with his book.
The book has made me thousands of dollars so yea it has valuable information from front to back and everywhere in between. Punked by Hal, another shitty opinion of yours.
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’ll trust a guy like Hal Houle who traveled with some of the greatest pool players ever, including Ralph Greanleaf over the nobodies posting here on Az that’s for sure.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I’ll trust a guy like Hal Houle who traveled with some of the greatest pool players ever, including Ralph Greanleaf over the nobodies posting here on Az that’s for sure.
You mean the same Hal Houle who said there are only three cut angles in pool because “pocket slop”, right? lol

Being a pool professional doesn’t mean you know much - probably the opposite, in fact.

pj
chgo
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You mean the same Hal Houle who said there are only three cut angles in pool because “pocket slop”, right? lol

Being a pool professional doesn’t mean you know much - probably the opposite, in fact.

pj
chgo
Yea and being a longtime poster on AZ doesn’t mean you know much either. I’ll still trust the guy out there actually playing over the keyboard warriors posting on AZ
 

tonythetiger583

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's the other video you need. Get that stuff down and aiming suddenly means much less in the grand scheme of things. Learn how 2 1/4" spheres react. Learn collision dynamics and contact points. Understand that pool balls are spheres and learn how spheres react. Learn how to make spheres go straight even when off angle. Learn this stuff by careful observation and experimentation. That's the secret to pool, no aiming system, no matter how objective or subjective will teach you these things.

Visualization from the proper stance/alignment is more powerful than any aiming sysystem.
Thank-you. That was excellent and a pleasure to watch. I've never considered stroke quality as the main culprit when I totally botch a shot. But that makes a lot of sense. And the "Ladies and Gentleman Part" is something I'm definitely gunna try.
 

tonythetiger583

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Great post. I have to say, though, that you knew all of this and bought the book anyway?

I had the same reaction to the NISL. lol. The Totally Not Made Up Line I Really Mean It This Time line, or TNMULIRMITT line.

A little disappointed there was not something cool like a pinup girl in that 3D, but cool nonetheless.
I have astigmatism, play on a short barbox and end up just staring blindly over my glasses.

So when I first started, I figured I'd just start with an established aiming system right off the bat. And CTE is very focused on the cueball at address. Since I'm not able to see the object ball anyways, it seemed like a good fit.

So for personal reasons I invested a lot of time into CTE and since I never learned traditional aiming, I'm forced to be pretty all-in.

But I play in league and I'm expected to get out at least 10% of the time and I swear my teammates think I'm on drugs sometimes. I'm as likely to miss a 60 degree cut as I am to miss a straight in shot.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I guess if you have a competing product and feel this way, the thing to do would be to lawyer up and take them to court. Isn't that the American way of business? It's an aiming system. I have about 20 pool books I've bought over the years, most claiming to be "the best" book on the subject. Are any of them the best? Not really, that's not how pool books work. You get it, read it, practice the things discussed, use what works, forget what doesn't. Then you put the book on a shelf and it sits collecting dust for the next 30 years. Chances are unless you frequent the aiming forum here and see all the drama, you would never see or hear of CTE. I mean, honestly, how deep do you have to dig to find this "monster" that is rampaging over all competitors? It's not in Barnes and Noble, it's not suggested to you on Amazon, it's not even on eBay unless someone happens to sell a copy. Chances are, if you're looking for a book on pool this is putting out such a low signal, you'll never even hear about it. But honestly, the drama is probably the only thing that even keeps the subject of CTE popping up. That and YouTube algorithms. I honestly get your point, but other than having a fun verbal joust and riling each other up, does "fighting the good fight" against CTE really accomplish anything? :unsure:


Even if CTE was completely false, it does the thing any aiming system does, gets you paying attention and actually giving attention to the shot at hand. Every aiming system I've ever heard of requires adjustments. Every one either works mathematically or through perceptions but they all require something of the user to actually work. Your rebuttal makes sense, I'm not saying it doesn't, but if you can't get something from the book, you're not trying hard enough. I guess if you can't parse good info from bad at the table, maybe you aren't a pool player. If a casual player gets wrong info from the book and uses it, chances are it won't really matter. They will either get serious enough to get that it's wrong, or they will at least have a framework other than just winging it. I'm not saying it's wrong to correct bad info when someone asks, but hot damn. I guess it's fun to have a decades long sparing partner to "debate" with or something. :)



Great post! If you really want to know how to aim, get your stance right. Once you do that, look at the OB and burn it into your mind. Now shoot it. Don't move until the balls stop. Observe. Always observe. If you miss, try to understand why. Could you hit a basket in basketball if you were facing backwards, or turned 45 degrees off the shot line while standing with your feet all twisted up? No one wants to hear this, but it took me 30 years of stubbornly playing "my way" to actually learn this hidden advice. Pool is about stance and fundamentals, aiming is far down the list, you just have to see the shot to aim. That's way less difficult than burning correct stance and alignment into your muscle memory. Dr. Dave's little stance dance is also great. It either feels right or it doesn't. If it doesn't feel right, don't shoot. You're not on a shot clock and nobody is going to think less of you for doing a little shuffle to get right.

Here's the other video you need. Get that stuff down and aiming suddenly means much less in the grand scheme of things. Learn how 2 1/4" spheres react. Learn collision dynamics and contact points. Understand that pool balls are spheres and learn how spheres react. Learn how to make spheres go straight even when off angle. Learn this stuff by careful observation and experimentation. That's the secret to pool, no aiming system, no matter how objective or subjective will teach you these things.

Visualization from the proper stance/alignment is more powerful than any aiming system.
I like this post with one reservation. Your perch from the fence prevents you from seeing what is right underneath you. Are you really saying that any aiming system, no matter how bogus, is really OK because the player will eventually figure it out for himself one way or the other? That's an unnecessarily low bar if you ask me. I have two jellybeans for sale, only $100, if you want to try my jelly bean aiming method.

I've long been of the opinion that any time at the table is good time, but there are limits.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Thank-you. That was excellent and a pleasure to watch. I've never considered stroke quality as the main culprit when I totally botch a shot. But that makes a lot of sense. And the "Ladies and Gentleman Part" is something I'm definitely gunna try.
You're welcome. This is something that takes work, especially if you are like I was with decades of bad habits, time off of pool, etc. It does work. I've been working on it for about 6 months and my game is almost unrecognizable compared to what it was. I'm still working on it and burning it in but it's amazing how well it works once you decide to set up properly and never go back to the way you did things before. Do I let some chicken wings, crooked stance etc slip in from time to time? Yes. It gets less all the time though. Once you get this burned into your game, you will instantly know why you missed a shot, and it's usually do to stance laziness, chicken wings poking up, or it was just a damn hard shot. Damn hard shots can be made, and are really fun to do, but there's a reason even the pros exchange safety play.

What really got me going down this rabbit hole was watching the Midwest Expo at Big Dogs this year. I had started on it at the suggestion of a friend, but actually seeing a variety of good players, all with different body types I noticed one thing. Even though their stance/stroke were all personalized, they were consistent above all. As the field thinned you started seeing players who approached every shot the same way. That was the light bulb moment.

I like this post with one reservation. Your perch from the fence prevents you from seeing what is right underneath you. Are you really saying that any aiming system, no matter how bogus, is really OK because the player will eventually figure it out for himself one way or the other? That's an unnecessarily low bar if you ask me. I have two jellybeans for sale, only $100, if you want to try my jelly bean aiming method.

I've long been of the opinion that any time at the table is good time, but there are limits.
Yeah I guess? This game is hard enough for me that I don't really have spare time to worry if others are chasing their tails. If I were teaching someone, I would be sure to only give good info, and info that was acceptable for them at their current level. I guess what I'm saying is any time at the table, even if you are doing the wrong thing, is good time as long as you can observe and figure out that what you're doing is wrong. Science is like that too. If you disprove your hypothesis, that is a good thing! It means you figured out what didn't work so you can further explore what does work. Even a ball banger that spends 40 hours a week on the table will be better than a billiards professor who spends an hour a week playing. Sometimes the journey to HAMB takes bad data to be able to parse. Knowing something is wrong can be as helpful as knowing something is right. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference though, this takes observation and a bit of peer review. Honestly there's nothing wrong with debating CTE, it just seems like a massive time sink without much return on investment.

What flavor of jelly beans? ;):)
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
@JB Cases , if you ever make your way to Iowa, hit me up. I'd love to shoot some stick with you. No high dollar bets, just some real pool and camaraderie. Same offer goes for @Patrick Johnson . You guys.. this is pool, why all the hatred? I guess "Earl" had it right, "Pool is a beautiful game played by ugly people." ;):)

For real, I'd hate to think of myself as a mediator, but why keep up the fight? There is 110% no chance of an agreement. Just let it go and hit some balls. It's called PLAYING pool. Become the shot. Become the game. You've both done it through different methods. Have some playful fun and just ignore the OTHER exists. No one cares, no one who can afford $100 for a book will miss $100, even if it's a complete sham. I don't think it is a sham. It might not pass 100% objective science but who the hell cares. There's no pool book that will pass 100% scientific objective measurements, even the physics guys. Pool is a beautiful game, stop and smell the roses instead of wading through chest deep shit of your own creation.

💕 The GAME, not the 🐂:poop:! :)
anytime. I made the same offer to Pat and spent an hour or so playing with him. I was highly disappointed in his unwillingness to actually explore the mechanics in cte and disinterest in getting together with a group to work on it.

but he has immense interest in arguing about it on forums and insulting those who don't agree with his claims.

I am interested in getting players together who are interested and having roundtables and testing and figuring out what works and how it works. I think that's both fun and informative and good for the sport.

it's easy to say let it go but there isn't anything to let go of. the dynamic here is this, those who use the system yet to share it with those who are interested in the medium of online forums and those like pat step in to derail the conversation.

look at my answers to you earlier. did I preach to you about it? I gave you my understanding and my experience.
What am I? Chopped liver? :)

It's Friday -- be happy!
we have an understanding.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'd like to see a beginner shoot with that pivot . lol
They don't even know where to hold the cue yet .
When I showed Rodney Morris teaching how to use the ghost ball , Barton says, sure because it's the easiest to teach.
Now, after the latest service pack, he's arguing he can teach beginner cantankerous twitching epilepsy system to beginners .
no you wouldn't. if I showed my daughters using cte it wouldn't change your stance one bit.

because, you're truly an evil person in my opinion.
 
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