Cue Finish ...

JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
John...
I stand by my personal assessment on a 2 part auto finish. However, I will agree that just because one uses a 2 part finish does not mean it's the end all. Proper prep and sealing pre spraying play a huge part in the longevity of certain products used. The choice of the actual 2K product will also play into the end formula. I've seen some cues that have been sprayed with car coat that look like a 3 grader was attempting to do their science project that they waited 15 minutes before the presentation to start it.
Just because one has a drivers license doesn't mean they know how to "drive."

Mentioning car roofs and hoods peeling really doesn't equate mainly because the vehicles you're looking at probably have never been washed or waxed in their lifetime. Some people are just plain lazy and then want to complain about what a crappy paint job General motors did on their car! :rolleyes:
The cues Scot from Proficient Billiards finishes do not look like a 3rd grader did them they look beautiful. And he has a sterling reputation in the refinishing world as far as I know. I also have no idea what he uses for a product but it's some kind of auto clear, was just saying that this cue was starting to peel a little.
 

BarenbruggeCues

Unregistered User
Silver Member
The cues Scot from Proficient Billiards finishes do not look like a 3rd grader did them they look beautiful. And he has a sterling reputation in the refinishing world as far as I know. I also have no idea what he uses for a product but it's some kind of auto clear, was just saying that this cue was starting to peel a little.
John,
I apologize for not making myself clear and you taking that I suggested Scott was a 3rd grade hack. That's not the case.
However, I can take 2 cues and spray them with the same finish and they both will look amazing when I'm done. I can also undoubtedly guarantee you one of them will survive far longer than 5-8 yrs while the other will suffer even if they were both put thru identical conditions. Why would you think that is? There's a reason some guys charge 3 times the amount to refinish a cue than others will as long as they're not an internet hack and just trying to steal your money.

The phrase captioned in red could very well be a huge part of the equation.
 

tomatoetom

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Brite Tone will likely be my choice forever.

I have done visual tests with clear coat cues next to Brite Tone and thus far no one can tell that one is shinier.

The alcohol thing is a little worrisome but I explain to people not to use it to clean the cue and why. No trouble thus far.

Here is a video I made on my finishing frustrations earlier this year. Brite Tone was a big part of my answer, your mileage may vary.

What was the name of the sealer you were using in the video? Thanks
 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I got a quart of Brite Tone delivered and will try it out when I find time. I have tried many different water based finishes through the years and have always went back to the two part slow drying epoxy/polymer finishes. I quit using auto clear coats a couple of decades ago. I have produced some really nice super glue finishes, but they are more hassle and more fumes than i wanted.
 

Burnett Custom Cues

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Brite Tone is a nice finish but the alcohol issue is a no go for me. I know most people don’t use alcohol to clean their cues but with all of the alcohol wipes people use to clean their cf shafts, I’m sure they will wipe down their butts too.

You can spray or brush Brite Tone on and their sanding sealer and wood grain filler are great products.
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you like Zinsser, you might sometime try real shellac, made from flakes.
Any of the de-waxed versions. Platina or superblonde are the whitest. Blonde adds a little more color.
Shellac ages fast when mixed. Actually, the flakes gradually age, too. ( gradually won't disolve)
But for shellac, the hardest, fastest drying mix will come from shellac you mix & strain yourself within a few weeks of use.
I'll sometimes use if for up to 1 year after mixing (always date containers and note #cut at time of mixing on each).
I prefer hard plastic juice bottles (Or soda bottles, but i don't drink that stuff :) ) over metal for storing.
Ethyl Alcohol from the hardware store.

smt<--------thinks shellac finish is fine, too. Just don't clean it with alcohol. So easy to shine up or repair.
 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
If you like Zinsser, you might sometime try real shellac, made from flakes.
Any of the de-waxed versions. Platina or superblonde are the whitest. Blonde adds a little more color.
Shellac ages fast when mixed. Actually, the flakes gradually age, too. ( gradually won't disolve)
But for shellac, the hardest, fastest drying mix will come from shellac you mix & strain yourself within a few weeks of use.
I'll sometimes use if for up to 1 year after mixing (always date containers and note #cut at time of mixing on each).
I prefer hard plastic juice bottles (Or soda bottles, but i don't drink that stuff :) ) over metal for storing.
Ethyl Alcohol from the hardware store.

smt<--------thinks shellac finish is fine, too. Just don't clean it with alcohol. So easy to shine up or repair.
Those are some finishes that will really yellow pretty fast aren't they?
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Those are some finishes that will really yellow pretty fast aren't they?

If you need water-white, they are not that.
But Platina has very little color.
They have no UV inhibitors. So the wood will change as "normal" photo reaction.

However, JC noted that he uses Zinsser for second fill, over epoxy.
My primary point was "if you like that, try mixing your own from flakes"
Brand new in dated cans, he might or might not notice a difference.
But i think Platina or superblonde will be lighter, and it can be mixed in small batches over night, so it is always fresh.

It does not yellow as fast as epoxy does.

I see Zinsser is finally making that product in de-waxed, so they are paying attention.
It used to be you got a can of Zinsser and it was about 30% (natural) wax if you ever let a can full settle in a glass container.
Wax in shellac reduces hardness makes it dry slower, and reduces water resistance, which it not very high to begin with.
The wax is natural to the product. It is extracted from de-waxed shellac, dyes are added, and it is sold as paste shoe polish. Or at least that is what paste sho polish was within recent memory. You never know these days. Also, by far, the biggest use for shellac itself is coating pills (medicine) and candies.

AFA "Does it turn yellow with age"? I guess it depends on the comparison standard.
In the past it was preferred because it did not yellow like varnish or lacquer. It also does not get sticky from hand oils, or being stored in/near plastic, like lacquer does. & it is incredibly easy to fix.

All that (re?)said :) My primary point is not really to sell others unless they are already using canned stuff like JC is, or if they are at a point where they just decide "I'm either using something non-toxic and easy, or i'm quitting". I'll never go full pro or take orders becasue 1.) There's too many other interesting things to build that i am constantly working on, and 2.) even this far along in life i might still go all 2 part deadly car finish on....a bike or airplane. But not on something that is built for indoor use, and mostly for relaxation.

The modern approach to finishing anything is "let's make that permanent" so we never have to do it again.
Except how many examples of "permanent" actually survive 10 years? 20? Not always due to finish failure itself but for a plethora of other causes including wood movement, etc, not to mention actual accidents.
Then fixing permanent can become a major expense and undertaking.

Things with "permanent" type finishes don't look aged, character marked, or patinaed when they get worn.
They look damaged, defective, and worn out.

I certainly have no problem with the "permanent" approach for some things or other peoples choices. For one thing, most people are less accident prone or absent minded than i am, so the risks are lower for them. Perhaps due to those personal life-long defects i tend to looke for repairability in my systems. :)

smt
 
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kling&allen

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
However, JC noted that he uses Zinsser for second fill, over epoxy.
My primary point was "if you like that, try mixing your own from flakes"
Brand new in dated cans, he might or might not notice a difference.
But i think Platina or superblonde will be lighter, and it can be mixed in small batches over night, so it is always fresh.

It does not yellow as fast as epoxy does.

Are you applying your shellac over epoxy? Or old school shellac-only "French polish"?
 

Guerra Cues

I build one cue at a time
Silver Member
You guys are not reading this right and are getting it all wrong and all mixed up. JC seals the wood with the sanding sealer and then the epoxy and then the finish which is the correct approach. It is the way I do it too… might not be the correct way for some people but it is the correct approach to me.
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you need water-white, they are not that.
But Platina has very little color.
They have no UV inhibitors. So the wood will change as "normal" photo reaction.

However, JC noted that he uses Zinsser for second fill, over epoxy.
My primary point was "if you like that, try mixing your own from flakes"
Brand new in dated cans, he might or might not notice a difference.
But i think Platina or superblonde will be lighter, and it can be mixed in small batches over night, so it is always fresh.

It does not yellow as fast as epoxy does.

I see Zinsser is finally making that product in de-waxed, so they are paying attention.
It used to be you got a can of Zinsser and it was about 30% (natural) wax if you ever let a can full settle in a glass container.
Wax in shellac reduces hardness makes it dry slower, and reduces water resistance, which it not very high to begin with.
The wax is natural to the product. It is extracted from de-waxed shellac, dyes are added, and it is sold as paste shoe polish. Or at least that is what paste sho polish was within recent memory. You never know these days. Also, by far, the biggest use for shellac itself is coating pills (medicine) and candies.

AFA "Does it turn yellow with age"? I guess it depends on the comparison standard.
In the past it was preferred because it did not yellow like varnish or lacquer. It also does not get sticky from hand oils, or being stored in/near plastic, like lacquer does. & it is incredibly easy to fix.

All that (re?)said :) My primary point is not really to sell others unless they are already using canned stuff like JC is, or if they are at a point where they just decide "I'm either using something non-toxic and easy, or i'm quitting". I'll never go full pro or take orders becasue 1.) There's too many other interesting things to build that i am constantly working on, and 2.) even this far along in life i might still go all 2 part deadly car finish on....a bike or airplane. But not on something that is built for indoor use, and mostly for relaxation.

The modern approach to finishing anything is "let's make that permanent" so we never have to do it again.
Except how many examples of "permanent" actually survive 10 years? 20? Not always due to finish failure itself but for a plethora of other causes including wood movement, etc, not to mention actual accidents.
Then fixing permanent can become a major expense and undertaking.

Things with "permanent" type finishes don't look aged, character marked, or patinaed when they get worn.
They look damaged, defective, and worn out.

I certainly have no problem with the "permanent" approach for some things or other peoples choices. For one thing, most people are less accident prone or absent minded than i am, so the risks are lower for them. Perhaps due to those personal life-long defects i tend to looke for repairability in my systems. :)

smt
What is there to FILL after two separate epoxy coats ?
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Are you applying your shellac over epoxy? Or old school shellac-only "French polish"?

personally, i only do traditional french polish on cues.
I have thought of epoxy-saturating one if i use burl, but then there's the cactus juice process which would seem preferable. I have not tried that.

AFA finishing other woodwork, i sometimes use epoxy saturation coat and level. Especially if it will be exposed to water like a bar rail (which will get a modern finish top coat, not shellac), or if it is something that could use consolidating like burl veneers sawn here. I *think* i have FP'd over epoxy, but can't recall specifics. Epoxy can really darken some wood, or in the case of WEST, sometimes make them reddish.

I guess a different way to look at it is that i press veneers and bent laminations with WEST. With burl, the WEST seeps through. I sand the furniture to clean up and level it, and then shellac/FP it. If there is an accident with the customer, or if there is a call back, it is relatively easy to repair. I would not do a dining room table that way, though.

If you go to member built cues and scroll down to post #354 about a desk with Rosewood/curly hard maple 6-point cue splice legs, all the burl veneer in the case was laid in WEST, which seeped through to consolidate it. Then after the panels were framed with the solid PF, it was all french polished along with everything else. The finish as seen in the photos is FP, then 0000 steel wool to cut the shine a bit, and 2 very thin coats of Tried & True rubbed out until dry. I have not used T & T on cues, it does mellow the shine & faintly darken, which can be desirable for furniture.

Also, the 2 cues in post #350 are straight FP, they got a couple more spit coats each after they were posted.



What is there to FILL after two separate epoxy coats ?

Did you watch the Coos video?
Or, like someone else said, maybe a few of us misunderstood it?

smt
 
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Bishop

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Brite Tone will likely be my choice forever.

I have done visual tests with clear coat cues next to Brite Tone and thus far no one can tell that one is shinier.

The alcohol thing is a little worrisome but I explain to people not to use it to clean the cue and why. No trouble thus far.

Here is a video I made on my finishing frustrations earlier this year. Brite Tone was a big part of my answer, your mileage may vary.

Great video. I’ll pick up a quart of that finish off Amazon and try it out. I refinish guitars too so we’ll see how it does on that as well. Thanks.
 

Guerra Cues

I build one cue at a time
Silver Member
You sure can apply Brite Tone on top of epoxy. Just follow John’s instructions on the video. My steps are exactly the same. The finish is hard as nails.
 
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