# Cue Tip Contact Myth-Busting Truths in Super Slow Motion

#### Pubo

##### Member
That's the question at the heart of the disagreements here. Mainly people not getting that there's a difference.

"Quality of spin" means the kind of spin that makes the most difference in pool results (i.e., spin-to-speed ratio).

pj
chgo
So, if it's a straight on shot. All the linear speed is imparted into the OB right after impact. Then in this case "quality of spin" = "angular speed", right? Then to quantify the quality of spin, it's a matter of calculating the resulting distance the CB can travel determined by it's angular speed. Then it would be clear if, say, 2 revolutions more per second makes a "noticeable" difference.

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
So, if it's a straight on shot. All the linear speed is imparted into the OB right after impact. Then in this case "quality of spin" = "angular speed", right?
For all shots "quality of spin" = angular speed / translational speed (spin/speed).

Then to quantify the quality of spin, it's a matter of calculating the resulting distance the CB can travel determined by it's angular speed.
All you need to do is shoot the CB straight (perpendicular) into a rail - the amount of angle change as it rebounds = the quality of spin (greater angle = more spin/speed).

pj
chgo

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#### Cornerman

##### Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
So, if it's a straight on shot. All the linear speed is imparted into the OB right after impact. Then in this case "quality of spin" = "angular speed", right?
When discussing "quality of spin," Object Balls are not in the equation. So, in your case that the linear speed is imparted (fully) into the OB after that cueball-to-OB impact, then in this case, the spin is just the RPMs. It's not the quality of spin, since quality of spin is the spin/speed ratio after the tip leaves the cueball.

#### atlas333

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I finally reached the end here!! I learned that some people have a great desire to ridicule others.

#### Das Cue-Boot

##### Active member
That is not the case. For a given total force pushing the surfaces together, there is greater pressure (force per area) over a smaller contact patch area, which creates greater friction in the same proportion. For more info, see the discussion of contact patch on the cue tip hardness effects page.
And if you read his fine print he is very careful to qualify this by referring to cue tips normally used for play under normal conditions. Like so many characteristics, this model works well for normal conditions. We are also talking here of static, not dynamic friction coefficients. At extremely low pressures, you may not achieve contact between the surfaces, hence no movement. At extremely high pressures, you may “break” the surface layer (especially at the corners of a very hard or sharp cue tip) and move to the dynamic COF.

Dr Dave asked about qualitative ideas about miscue limits. It appears to me that they may be related to that static-dynamic transition. For those with engineering backgrounds, I am proposing that we could generate something like a Reynolds number for miscue transition since I think the high and low pressure cases may be related that way. Any ideas on that here, or should we start another discussion?

#### dr_dave

##### Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
We are also talking here of static, not dynamic friction coefficients. At extremely low pressures, you may not achieve contact between the surfaces, hence no movement. At extremely high pressures, you may “break” the surface layer (especially at the corners of a very hard or sharp cue tip) and move to the dynamic COF.

... or the chalk particles that embed in both the tip and ball might rip out of the tip, maybe more easily with a soft tip.

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#### Cornerman

##### Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
I finally reached the end here!! I learned that some people have a great desire to ridicule others.
Yep

#### DynoDan

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I heard him in the 70's playing for LA Express backing up Joni Mitchell, but I'm sure he's kept the blues thing going. Not sure about the sound being synthesized but everyone's got an opinion.
Don‘t know what he was using with Joni, but before with Witherspoon he just plugged straight into a point-to-point/all tube Fender amp. The last time I saw him, he played thru a stack of computers. Not saying a synthesized tone is bad (it IS just a matter of personal taste), it‘s only that the inherent/unique character of the specific guitar gets lost with all the additional electronics. An electric vehicle can be just as fast as internal combustion, but those who favor a throaty exhaust rumble will pine.

#### RDeca

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is l it possible that the characteristics of each tip during contact cancel out the differences in spin that may be applied to a cueball?

just shoot with what gives u the most confidence. Confidence is one of the biggest factors in being able to play well.

#### dr_dave

##### Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Is l it possible that the characteristics of each tip during contact cancel out the differences in spin that may be applied to a cueball?

just shoot with what gives u the most confidence. Confidence is one of the biggest factors in being able to play well.

Well stated. It doesn’t really matter what tip hardness you choose. If you think your choice is the best for you, you will probably play better with it. The mind is a powerful thing.

My only goal in this thread and in my follow-up video was to debunk the common pool myth that a softer tip can impart more spin than a harder tip. I think I accomplished my goal. I also added many supporting explanations on my resource page, which is now much more thorough and complete. So, to me, something good did come from this long discussion and debate. Now, when somebody spouts off the myth again, I can just send them to the page without having to get into a big discussion and debate again.

#### Poolmanis

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well stated. It doesn’t really matter what tip hardness you choose. If you think your choice is the best for you, you will probably play better with it. The mind is a powerful thing.

My only goal in this thread and in my follow-up video was to debunk the common pool myth that a softer tip can impart more spin than a harder tip. I think I accomplished my goal. I also added many supporting explanations on my resource page, which is now much more thorough and complete. So, to me, something good did come from this long discussion and debate.
I sensed some frustation from your earlier posts and i understand why.
People doubting your debunkin video results etc..
I just wanted to point out that if you make videos that prove some myths that people believe wrong... They often not gonna believe proof and still believe their own stuff and will critisize all proofs.
Happens all areas if life.
So if you gonna make more debunking videos dont be surprised...

#### buckshotshoey

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I sensed some frustation from your earlier posts and i understand why.
People doubting your debunkin video results etc..
I just wanted to point out that if you make videos that prove some myths that people believe wrong... They often not gonna believe proof and still believe their own stuff and will critisize all proofs.
Happens all areas if life.
So if you gonna make more debunking videos dont be surprised...
And they won't try to video their own experiments to offer proof.

#### jollyrodger

##### #1 Troublemaker
Silver Member
here is chatgpt's response

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#### pvc lou

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
here is chatgpt's response

Does chatgpt even have a phd in science bro?

Tell’em @dr_dave, chatgpt is blue pilled. It’s telling us exactly what the matrix wants us to think.

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#### pvc lou

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
@dr_dave are you going to let chatgpt spout off like that? Better send that link bro. ASAP!

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#### dendweller

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Don‘t know what he was using with Joni, but before with Witherspoon he just plugged straight into a point-to-point/all tube Fender amp. The last time I saw him, he played thru a stack of computers. Not saying a synthesized tone is bad (it IS just a matter of personal taste), it‘s only that the inherent/unique character of the specific guitar gets lost with all the additional electronics. An electric vehicle can be just as fast as internal combustion, but those who favor a throaty exhaust rumble will pine.
Okay, I understand where you were going now and don't disagree. I thought by synthesized you were just giving an opinion on his sound, not that it's actually largely synthesized. Saw him about 7,8 years ago, didn't notice his equipment. 3 piece, I believe the bass player was Larry Carlton's son.

#### jollyrodger

##### #1 Troublemaker
Silver Member
@dr_dave are you going to let chatgpt spout off like that? Better send that link bro. ASAP!

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here ya go here is a link

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#### pvc lou

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
here ya go here is a link

Oh snap. Chatgpt is in big trouble now.

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#### dr_dave

##### Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
here is chatgpt's response

The main problem with AI-generated stuff is:
garbage in = garbage out.​

As another example of chatGPT's lack of pool physics knowledge and insight, see:

I hope that some day, chatGPT will become self aware and insightful and have the ability to separate truth and proper interpretations from Internet "alternative facts," but I doubt we will see that happen in our lifetimes. It is hard enough for humans to decide what is truth vs. fiction, but it is even harder to program a computer to tell the difference.

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#### jollyrodger

##### #1 Troublemaker
Silver Member
And they won't try to video their own experiments to offer proof.
It's important to note that video documentation of experiments can be a valuable tool for providing proof and increasing the credibility of scientific findings. While there are potential limitations to the use of video in scientific research, such as issues with camera positioning, lighting, or image resolution, these can generally be addressed through careful planning and experimentation.

When conducting scientific experiments, it's important to follow established protocols for data collection and analysis, and to ensure that findings are rigorously tested and validated before they are presented as proof. Video documentation can be one useful method for capturing and analyzing data, but it is not the only method available. Other techniques, such as written notes, diagrams, or photographs, can also be used to document and analyze experimental results.

Ultimately, the quality and validity of scientific research depend on many factors, including the rigor of the experimental methods, the validity of the underlying hypotheses, and the transparency and openness of the researchers in presenting their findings. Video documentation can be one tool to support these goals, but it is not a substitute for careful and rigorous scientific inquiry.