curving an object ball....

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What you want is fine for you... but what about what others that are not so science oriented want, which might be to hear HOW John does what he does & what makes him such a great banker of the ball.

Why must that be killed for the sake of 'science'?

You keep saying this over and over, that science killed the teaching. First, there hasn't been any fancy science, just more videos and requests for videos of balls curving. That's what JB posted in the first place. And he agreed that his video was ambiguous and said he would try again. Second, JB was not going to teach how to bank or curve on AZ. He has videos that he sells and he gives paid lessons. If people want to learn how to bank, they should pay JB, not expect him to post his lessons for free.
 

elvicash

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am going John Brumbacks in a couple of weeks. He will have new cloth. I will have a high speed video camera and lights we will have much better video. I don't know that we will attempt this challenge, but we will find out if and how much John can curve the OB.

About the challenge I think it is wonderful that 2 science minded players have put together some cash and offer it to whomever can accomplish their challenge. Why hate on them they both give back quite a bit to this sport. I would reckon they give considerable more of their time and money than most posters in this thread. And they are trying to build something for pool and share the knowledge.

Also just to put it out their Bob Jewett can play some pool 1P 14.1 Artistic billiards etc and he shares his info with the world. He has a Balabushka that George Balbushka made for him. He has been around and been there and made things happen such as this fact, he has had a major role in bringing 14.1 back into play. I find it constantly in pools nationwide as I travel and I feel that resurgence has a lot to do with the DCC 14.1 event he started and sponsored for a number of years including this year. Bob has written a lot of articles on pool. Pro's ask Bob's opinion, look to him for knowledge.

I have never met Dr. Dave but I would be willing to bet that his level of play is quite a bit higher than most posters in this thread.
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
THIS!

JoeyA

I am going John Brumbacks in a couple of weeks. He will have new cloth. I will have a high speed video camera and lights we will have much better video. I don't know that we will attempt this challenge, but we will find out if and how much John can curve the OB.

About the challenge I think it is wonderful that 2 science minded players have put together some cash and offer it to whomever can accomplish their challenge. Why hate on them they both give back quite a bit to this sport. I would reckon they give considerable more of their time and money than most posters in this thread. And they are trying to build something for pool and share the knowledge.

Also just to put it out their Bob Jewett can play some pool 1P 14.1 Artistic billiards etc and he shares his info with the world. He has a Balabushka that George Balbushka made for him. He has been around and been there and made things happen such as this fact, he has had a major role in bringing 14.1 back into play. I find it constantly in pools nationwide as I travel and I feel that resurgence has a lot to do with the DCC 14.1 event he started and sponsored for a number of years including this year. Bob has written a lot of articles on pool. Pro's ask Bob's opinion, look to him for knowledge.

I have never met Dr. Dave but I would be willing to bet that his level of play is quite a bit higher than most posters in this thread.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From your perspective.
In the videos and still shots presented with straight lines running through them, does the ball travel in a straight line off the rail, or not?
Simple yes or no will suffice.


It is not knowable.

On the original video it looks like it might. But on the version of the video that HalfDeadEd posted -- https://youtu.be/ncLo7-ipSDE -- with a line superimposed, and taking into account camera movement and ball hop, probably not. Then, in lieu of the video Dr. Dave posted of his attempts, with an analysis of Freddy the Beard's video, which I think before everyone thought showed the ball curved, no.

Lou Figueroa
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
It is not knowable.

On the original video it looks like it might. But on the version of the video that HalfDeadEd posted -- https://youtu.be/ncLo7-ipSDE -- with a line superimposed, and taking into account camera movement and ball hop, probably not. Then, in lieu of the video Dr. Dave posted of his attempts, with an analysis of Freddy the Beard's video, which I think before everyone thought showed the ball curved, no.

Lou Figueroa

Apparently I'm more than confused since that video clearly shows no movement when the bank is in motion, so "camera movement" is a red herring. There isn't any definitive ball hop, so that's conjecture. All we have is a line and a ball not moving straight on that line. But, hey, the camera must be moving, and the ball is clearly moving, even though the video shows neither.

I never thought Freddy's video showed curve, but have certainly believed a ball can be curved. Brumback's video has only strengthened that belief since there is no clear hop, and the camera isn't moving while that ball is in motion.

Freddie <~~~ clearly just blind
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
From my perspective, a challenge has been made.

The science people are asking for video proof of an object ball being banked with a curve of less than one-half of a ball's width, 1" to be exact. ...

In Bob's original set-up (post #279) with the 1"-wide board, the curve or bend required would be a minimum of 1¼".

But subsequent posts have mentioned set-ups that would require smaller bends.
 
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SUPERSTAR

I am Keyser Söze
Silver Member
On the original video it looks like it might.

Lou Figueroa

So the champions video is the most convincing of the bunch.:eek:

Did The Beard actually say the ball curved in his video? I haven't seen it.
I knew someone that had his DVD and watched maybe 3 minutes of it laughed at it when he makes the 3 railer side to side straight back cross corner, when the object ball is in front of the opponents hole and the cueball is in line with it.
He hits it like a sissy, and the ball magically goes nice and slow and 3 rails in the hole.
Knowing that shot, the way he hit it, the table had to be tilted for what I saw to happen.
No one hits that shot soft like that and makes it where the ball is dribbling in the hole.
I didn't care to watch the rest of it after that as I felt he hacked it up with that garbage.

First video by J.B. is pretty clear IMO.
Hence, my inability to see why people have lost their minds.
 

AlienObserver

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From your perspective.
In the videos and still shots presented with straight lines running through them, does the ball travel in a straight line off the rail, or not?
Simple yes or no will suffice.
b1c92014a937a64c946febb9f508bbe8.jpg

Well judging from this picture we can say that this man is holding in his hand those little people...
It's all about perspective. Yes, judging from those straight lines the ball doesn't appear to be moving in a straight line... But is the straight line added on those stills straight with the table?
 

SUPERSTAR

I am Keyser Söze
Silver Member
b1c92014a937a64c946febb9f508bbe8.jpg

Well judging from this picture we can say that this man is holding in his hand those little people...
It's all about perspective. Yes, judging from those straight lines the ball doesn't appear to be moving in a straight line... But is the straight line added on those stills straight with the table?

A NEWBIE WITH 5 POSTS JUMPING INTO THE MIX!
Which banned member of the rogues gallery are you? LOL

Are you suggesting that our blind spots are coming into play with this shot, and that our brain is filling in the details with incorrect information?
Last I checked, cameras didn't have blind spots, and straight lines were straight.
So unless the still shots of the banks with the straight line superimposed on top of the trajectory has an optic nerve blind spot, I don't think this is an illusion.
Plus I've banked balls like this.

Just yesterday I had someone stand at the corner pocket while I blasted banks toward it.
He said there was curve right off the rail, but couldn't tell why it was happening. Didn't know if it was because of spin or being airborne.
The biggest problem he said with looking at it is that the shot is happening way too fast.
 

AlienObserver

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First of all, I am not a banned member.. I'm just a newbie just like you said. I'm not pretending to know more than any of you about pool. I'm just an E' category player on my region. I just love this game and it has helped me alot with some personal problems I've been dealing with for the last years. So I found this forum and thought "hey, look, more people who love this game and like talking about it"...

All I'm saying is that I don't find it disrespectful if someone likes to know how things work. I understand that this is not how everyone feels. I am a musician. I know people who play and write amazing things and don't know absolutely nothing about music theory. They just go with the feel. On the other hand I know people who have tromendus knoledge of the theory and they can explain to you why something works. I don't think that those who are interested in finding out the why something works are disrespecting anyone....

I have a very limited knoledge about both billiards and optics. Sadly, english is my second language so I can't properly explain to you my argument about post video added lines on the pool table. I will leave this to those who can explain it properly and know for sure that what they are talking about are facts.
My intensions weren't to offend anyone, i just posted this picture to try to explain my argument. Again, I'm not pretending to either know more about pool than any of you, or play better. I just love the game and I love finding new things about it.
 
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pool101

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here is the setup in the following video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeeKEudvx8g
Here is the video, Bob a check or money order will be fine. PM me for the address.. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkRs_m2Br3c I do not have Johns stroke or knowledge but I believe you can see from the set up that the ball is curving, almost to center of the pocket on a couple of shots. Also note that the ball hits the rail well ahead of the blocker on the rail, which means there is more curve to the ball than just enough to make it in the pocket.
To keep it all together here is a link to measuring the curve. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q78s5Hq88sA
Mark

One more thing, in the videos I posted earlier in this thread, I was using the wrong stroke. I went back and watched Johns DVD and figured out my mistake, I called John and discussed it with him and this is the result. It is in how you stroke the ball that results in the correct action..
Also the correct method is available for less than $500 on Johns Bank pool secrets DVD.. :)
 
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Rubik's Cube

Pool ball collector.
Silver Member
Good evening, Alien Observer.

That was a nicely written post, sir, particularly in a second language.

I've always thought being a great player and being in possession of a sound understanding of the scientific principles are not mutually exclusive attributes. I concur with those who believe it may be detrimental to over think certain strokes whilst playing, but that's no excuse not to educate oneself off the table... chatting with like-minded folks on Internet fora for instance.

Good luck and kind regards,
RC.
 

SUPERSTAR

I am Keyser Söze
Silver Member
Here is the setup in the following video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeeKEudvx8g
Here is the video, Bob a check or money order will be fine. PM me for the address.. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkRs_m2Br3c I do not have Johns stroke or knowledge but I believe you can see from the set up that the ball is curving, almost to center of the pocket on a couple of shots.
Mark

We have a winner.
He just BURIED the science guys.
Nicely done.
LOL.
The slow mo shots look just like a bowling ball sliding down the lane.

HE BEET ME. STRAIGHT OPP
PAY HEEM
PAY DAT MAN HEEZ MONEE!
 
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Rubik's Cube

Pool ball collector.
Silver Member
Good evening, Pool 101.

That's a fine effort, sir. It was interesting to note some of the balls appeared to curve quite near the pocket. Also, to my eye, the OB seemed to bend more in real time than the slow-motion replay, an illusion for which I'm at a loss to explain.

Well done and kind regards,
RC.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is the setup in the following video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeeKEudvx8g
Here is the video, Bob a check or money order will be fine. PM me for the address.. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkRs_m2Br3c I do not have Johns stroke or knowledge but I believe you can see from the set up that the ball is curving, almost to center of the pocket on a couple of shots.
Mark

Very nicely done. (I think Bob said he'd have to be there in person for the money though.) As it's spinning toward the pocket, it looks like it has low right, which could curve it in the right direction. That's the same spin it looks like JB's has. And it looks to me like your object ball hops too - I wonder if, rather than contributing to an illusion, the hop helps the curve?
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So the champions video is the most convincing of the bunch.:eek:

Did The Beard actually say the ball curved in his video? I haven't seen it.
I knew someone that had his DVD and watched maybe 3 minutes of it laughed at it when he makes the 3 railer side to side straight back cross corner, when the object ball is in front of the opponents hole and the cueball is in line with it.
He hits it like a sissy, and the ball magically goes nice and slow and 3 rails in the hole.
Knowing that shot, the way he hit it, the table had to be tilted for what I saw to happen.
No one hits that shot soft like that and makes it where the ball is dribbling in the hole.
I didn't care to watch the rest of it after that as I felt he hacked it up with that garbage.

First video by J.B. is pretty clear IMO.
Hence, my inability to see why people have lost their minds.


"Might" is a tad short of convincing.

My recollection is that Freddy said his bank was curving and on first viewing of the video it certainly looked to me like it was. After watching Dr. Dave's video analysis, not so much.

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First of all, I am not a banned member.. I'm just a newbie just like you said. I'm not pretending to know more than any of you about pool. I'm just an E' category player on my region. I just love this game and it has helped me alot with some personal problems I've been dealing with for the last years. So I found this forum and thought "hey, look, more people who love this game and like talking about it"...

All I'm saying is that I don't find it disrespectful if someone likes to know how things work. I understand that this is not how everyone feels. I am a musician. I know people who play and write amazing things and don't know absolutely nothing about music theory. They just go with the feel. On the other hand I know people who have tromendus knoledge of the theory and they can explain to you why something works. I don't think that those who are interested in finding out the why something works are disrespecting anyone....

I have a very limited knoledge about both billiards and optics. Sadly, english is my second language so I can't properly explain to you my argument about post video added lines on the pool table. I will leave this to those who can explain it properly and know for sure that what they are talking about are facts.
My intensions weren't to offend anyone, i just posted this picture to try to explain my argument. Again, I'm not pretending to either know more about pool than any of you, or play better. I just love the game and I love finding new things about it.


Welcome, Alien. Don't let some of the more paranoid natives here scare you off. Nice post for a 2nd language, BTW.

Lou Figueroa
 

Rubik's Cube

Pool ball collector.
Silver Member
There are a few areas that do not meet the challenge's criteria, and thus the prize money will not be forthcoming just yet, but it was a fine effort nonetheless.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is the setup in the following video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeeKEudvx8g
Here is the video, Bob a check or money order will be fine. PM me for the address.. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkRs_m2Br3c I do not have Johns stroke or knowledge but I believe you can see from the set up that the ball is curving, almost to center of the pocket on a couple of shots. Also note that the ball hits the rail well ahead of the blocker on the rail, which means there is more curve to the ball than just enough to make it in the pocket.
Mark


Maybe I missed changes to the original prop but I know you didn't comport with the original stipulations.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5504019&postcount=279

Lou Figueroa
 

gutshot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is what I alluded to in my earlier post. You are creating a masse effect where the ob is spinning at an angle to the forward direction the ob is traveling. The ob does curve, but the amount of curvature the shooter observes is enhanced by the shooters visual perspective of the shot since the ob is coming back at an agle toward the shooter. A 1" curve might appear to the shooter as being 3".
 
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