Deflection, Endmass and Shaft Design

HittMan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’m new here so I have not seen a lot of the discussions on deflection and shaft design…so for those of you who have followed this conceptually, please don’t let me confuse this issue with old and fully settled questions. Simply point me to the answer and I’ll get up to speed without troubling anyone. I was obliged recently to answer criticism heaped on one of my friends and customers for posting his new cue in the cue gallery and showing his exuberance. In the process, one fellow posted a link to an article on cue ball squirt that uses some quantified methods of physics and maths to explain the squirt phenomenon. For those of you who have not read the article the link is

http://www.sfbilliards.com/Shepard_squirt.pdf

I first heard the term “deflection” a couple of years ago and had to shake my head in disbelief at “the straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel” feeling I got at the explanation received. I have come to understand that the explanation was flawed but my impression has not abated. I posted this excerpt in the cue gallery and got no direct rebuttal so I decided to post it again, properly titled, to generate discourse and understanding.

I really enjoyed the referenced article...particularly enjoyed the methods. But I don't understand?...

"The parameter Mtip is not the total stick mass. Rather, it is the inertial resistance to sideways motion that the tip possesses. This effective mass Mtip is sometimes called the endmass...It is clear from the last expression that the individual endmass and ball mass values are not important, but rather it is only the ball mass to endmass ratio that matters."

It appears that the article is drawing an effective parallel between mass and inertial resistance to force...is this done so the reader may quantify additional values at some later date using this "mass" as a component for some kind of thrust calc that may actually define the curve of the resistance of different shafts?
What seems to be the prevailing conclusion from the methods of this study is that the value of "endmass" equals the weight of the tip or last 6" or so of the shaft and that this is the most significant factor in the actual resistance to sideways motion. I wonder if weight has so strong a correlation to this resistance as does, say, the material used, or better yet, the combination of the material and the chosen structure. Surely, at the level of establishing paramaters for initial consideration; weight may serve as a proxy for clarity but under more rigorous analysis of the elements, other factors would quickly show more promise as leading contributors to the phenomon. Particularly those whose results do not approximate experience. Possibly this is the source of the volume and voracity of the debate on this issue. If I set up a quick experiment where we take a given structure (1 unique shaft) and test its "inertial resistance to sideways motion" at the tip by measuring the "impulse" thrust required to move it a specified distance I think we would find that the location of the bridge/fulcrum would have a much greater effect on the "endmass" than adding or removing weight that might fall within the limits of reasonable possibility. My experience tells me that shortening up my bridge distance allows me to more accurately aim. I am a great believer in the scientific method and great admirer of those who follow it but it is not without its traps. A cursory study of history will provide ample evidence to support this.

As you may suspect, I take issue with several other premise forwarded in this article. We can address them another day in another thread.
 
HittMan said:
I'm trolling for a debate on a basic issue of the deflection arguement.

This looks like a great article. About time one of us lazy butts sat down and did the math. I'm a tad rusty, but understand ... I'll have to print this out and really think it through.

From analysis of data gathered in charts I've seen - MASS at the tip *is* the determining factor in the deflection issue. Predators "multi-splice" thing probably doesn't even matter. Just the "hollowing" at the end is only thing that matters. I'm wondering why other cue companies haven't picked up on this and filled a hole down the center at end with a hard, light, poly-styro of some kind. Bet it would play as well as any multi-spiced predator.
 
HittMan said:
I’m new here so I have not seen a lot of the discussions on deflection and shaft design…so for those of you who have followed this conceptually, please don’t let me confuse this issue with old and fully settled questions. Simply point me to the answer and I’ll get up to speed without troubling anyone. I was obliged recently to answer criticism heaped on one of my friends and customers for posting his new cue in the cue gallery and showing his exuberance. In the process, one fellow posted a link to an article on cue ball squirt that uses some quantified methods of physics and maths to explain the squirt phenomenon. For those of you who have not read the article the link is

http://www.sfbilliards.com/Shepard_squirt.pdf

I first heard the term “deflection” a couple of years ago and had to shake my head in disbelief at “the straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel” feeling I got at the explanation received. I have come to understand that the explanation was flawed but my impression has not abated. I posted this excerpt in the cue gallery and got no direct rebuttal so I decided to post it again, properly titled, to generate discourse and understanding.

I really enjoyed the referenced article...particularly enjoyed the methods. But I don't understand?...

"The parameter Mtip,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

As you may suspect, I take issue with several other premise forwarded in this article. We can address them another day in another thread.


man,,,whatever you said. i fell asleep 1/3 through. and you'd get more cogent retort on a physics thread in google groups. but here's what a 3 cushion player said to me,,,,,,he EXPECTS deflection, but he only demands consistency. and adding to the mix, don't forget how well you stroke through the cb. however you want to quantify the science of the game, it's just human beings playing it.
 
bruin 70

I am a degreed civil engineer. I agree. I started to read this and got completely bored and feel that it is not worth the time to try to figure out what he is trying to say or prove. It is too deep for me and I really don't care. Hit the ball. If it goes in great. If you miss...practice more. Do you think that Efrin, Corey, Earl Etc really care or worry about all of this BS? I bet the only math or science that any of them know is how to figure out the odds or how much they will win.
 
Bob Jewett would be the one with whom you could discuss this article. He posts here and I suspect he'll be along shortly.

I too don't enjoy the extremely scientific articles. I'm just not well enough educated in the sciences. I like knowing about squirt, deflection etc. I want to know how it will effect my shots and what I can do to adjust but I just don't enjoy reading the technical articles. I'll leave that up to Ron Shepard, Bob Jewett, Fred Agnir, etc.
 
DeadStrokeMan said:
This looks like a great article. About time one of us lazy butts sat down and did the math. I'm a tad rusty, but understand ... I'll have to print this out and really think it through.

From analysis of data gathered in charts I've seen - MASS at the tip *is* the determining factor in the deflection issue. Predators "multi-splice" thing probably doesn't even matter. Just the "hollowing" at the end is only thing that matters. I'm wondering why other cue companies haven't picked up on this and filled a hole down the center at end with a hard, light, poly-styro of some kind. Bet it would play as well as any multi-spiced predator.

Agreed...but don't worry with the math just yet...make sure the methods are good...re-read the quote from the article. "...it is the resistance to sideways motion...This effective mass..." Would I be correct in saying that the author paraphrased the term "effective mass" for clarity, NOT as a definition to derive a unit of measure (such as grams, oz, etc.) from which a calculation of the resistance could be derived. Then, it appears he goes right ahead with calculations from a paraphrased term. In my estimation, the actual mass or weight (we'll assume planet earth at sea level) of the tip simply cannot be used to accurately measure (or even estimate) the resistance of a complex structure to bending, impulse or otherwise, particularly when the fulcrum (the bridge) of the structure (from which one might derive a moment-type calculation) is constantly changing.

I would be interested to hear your opinion when you have time to review the article...thanks.
 
bruin70 said:
man,,,whatever you said. i fell asleep 1/3 through. and you'd get more cogent retort on a physics thread in google groups. but here's what a 3 cushion player said to me,,,,,,he EXPECTS deflection, but he only demands consistency. and adding to the mix, don't forget how well you stroke through the cb. however you want to quantify the science of the game, it's just human beings playing it.

I agree...this is where the gnat/camel metaphor comes in...the deflection of the shaft is only one of thousands (probably not even one of the biggest) of highly variable factors which must be estimated to successfully play the game. Consistency then would be available in almost every shaft since most shafts will perform substantially the same every day...won't they? If not...why not?
 
TheBook said:
bruin 70

I am a degreed civil engineer. I agree. I started to read this and got completely bored and feel that it is not worth the time to try to figure out what he is trying to say or prove. It is too deep for me and I really don't care. Hit the ball. If it goes in great. If you miss...practice more. Do you think that Efrin, Corey, Earl Etc really care or worry about all of this BS? I bet the only math or science that any of them know is how to figure out the odds or how much they will win.

I agree...this seems like a stretch to me as well. I am hoping to find illumination in this discussion. I am a CPA and a Landscape Architect...in my "retirement", I now build cues. I have always had an interest in numbers and structures. I am searching for an answer to a persistent question that I didn't really understand. Many of my potential customers have taken up the mantle of deflection as a buying decision...I feel I need to understand.
 
JimS said:
Bob Jewett would be the one with whom you could discuss this article. He posts here and I suspect he'll be along shortly.

I too don't enjoy the extremely scientific articles. I'm just not well enough educated in the sciences. I like knowing about squirt, deflection etc. I want to know how it will effect my shots and what I can do to adjust but I just don't enjoy reading the technical articles. I'll leave that up to Ron Shepard, Bob Jewett, Fred Agnir, etc.

I am hoping they will join in as well.
 
HittMan said:
I'm trolling for a debate on a basic issue of the deflection arguement.

Good. I hope you're not as ignorant about squirt as most cuemakers are. To demonstrate the extremes, just tape a AA battery on end of a house cue about an inch from the end and shoot some simple inside english shots. You'll soon see it's effect in action. You'l be lucky to hit the right rail much less the pocket.

Chris
 
HittMan said:
As you may suspect, I take issue with several other premise forwarded in this article. We can address them another day in another thread.

I also noted some issues with the "squirt article" on another board. However, prevailing opinion is hard to change, and this article is used like a Holy Shield when defending their position. A second Shield is the "Lead Tip" experiment, where mass was added to the ferrule area, which increases deflection. [Which, btw, is totally irrelevant to the discussion about rigidity (stiffness of the shaft)] In fact, many self-appointed authorities will state that the Lead Tip experiment proves that rigidity does not affect deflection. In fact, it merely shows that endmass does affect deflection without even addressing the issue of rigidity...

I once made the following argument, and was ostracized for not conforming...
Since F=MA, increasing endmass (M) will result in more resistance-force during contact for the same acceleration, i.e., a heavier endmass results in more resistance to sideways movement for the contact period which results in more squirt. But that doesn't address the stiffness issue. Since you are adding only weight, saying that this shows that stiffness doesn't affect deflection is comparing apples to oranges...​

It is clear that solving the system for all forces clearly indicates that MORE than endmass affects deflection. However, pointing out the obvious won't get you very far in their eyes. Too many people take the information they believe is right and spread it around to everyone else like a cold. In fact, you can find scores of automatons championing this position just to appear like another authority, without even understanding how the system behaves or verifying their beliefs through calculation or experiment.

And just to be clear, I don't know what the answer is, but one thing I'm sure of: I think that it's a bad idea to accept what the 'authorities' say without questioning it and having proof. If the proof shows they are right, I'll praise their wisdom, but until then, I'll don't think I'll be one of the sheep.

-td --> check your PM's
 
im not sure if you just have a prob. with the article or just the debate?

but ive always hated it when people try to take out the human error. i dont think it matters as much as people think, of course for some its good to make a big stink out of it cause theyr trying to make a profit from it.

do you think if you had more accurate equiptment it would make you a champ?

i always laughed about one guys test machine that supposedly measured deflction, but he was really measuring throw but most people dont know the difference, they just watched and took his unscientific word for it?

ive been wanting to do some experiments but have not had time to make the test pieces.

what do you think would happen with a 20mm, 25mm shaft with a 13mm ferrule? more or less deflection? do you think at some rediculous size there will be no deflection? what about some super stiff material for the ferrule end of the shaft?

hhhhhmmmmmm......
 
HittMan said:
I agree...this seems like a stretch to me as well. I am hoping to find illumination in this discussion. I am a CPA and a Landscape Architect...in my "retirement", I now build cues. I have always had an interest in numbers and structures. I am searching for an answer to a persistent question that I didn't really understand. Many of my potential customers have taken up the mantle of deflection as a buying decision...I feel I need to understand.


Then go to the sources directly on RSB. Ron Shepard and Bob Jewett are available to you 24/7 over there and will answer all questions. They revel in these kinds of discussions and everyone's dicks will get harder than diamonds if you start a thread on it over there.

AZ members consist of players who have either learned to live with it or don't give a rat's ass one way or another.
It's just not that big a deal if you know how to play.

If you're concerned about the deflection issue for your customers, then get Predator blanks for everyone and just do what you have to do to fit their cues. Anyone that is so freaked out about deflection will eventually get a Predator anyway, so you might as well put the money in YOUR pocket. So, my final words on the subject are....fuck Ron Shepard and fuck Bob Jewett both on their obsession with deflection. They're both PH.D's that can't play for shit and as FL always used to say...that stands for post hole diggers!
 
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drivermaker said:
Then go to the sources directly on RSB. Ron Shepard and Bob Jewett are available to you 24/7 over there and will answer all questions. They revel in these kinds of discussions and everyone's dicks will get harder than diamonds if you start a thread on it over there.

AZ members consist of players who have either learned to live with it or don't give a rat's ass one way or another.
It's just not that big a deal if you know how to play.

If you're concerned about the deflection issue for your customers, then get Predator blanks for everyone and just do what you have to do to fit their cues. Anyone that is so freaked out about deflection will eventually get a Predator anyway, so you might as well put the money in YOUR pocket. So, my final words on the subject are....fuck Ron Shepard and fuck Bob Jewett both on their obsession with deflection. They're both PH.D's that can't play a lick and as FL always used to say...that stands for post hole diggers!

i love your post, but i cant stand all the bs used to sell products, you mention predator, but even though deflection doesnt matter as far as if one can play they make a big deal out of it, even though they dont claim it has no deflectoin..... so whats the point? just theyr selling point to make a buck? them (*^@##%$%**&%@#$%&^ers.
 
HittMan said:
Consistency then would be available in almost every shaft since most shafts will perform substantially the same every day...won't they? If not...why not?

i would say NOT. my guess is that with more whip in a shaft(i guess at this point i'm straying from the "endmass" concept), the more leeway for inconsistancy. the 3 cushion players play with stiff tapers, thus less flex, thus less room for inconsistancy, as the shaft will always play the same. but, i have to assume that player mechanics makes up the greatest reason for performance, so i don't indulge in all that "predator" stuff unless it would make me feel good.

most shafts have a good and bad side, especially if they have a pro taper and if cuemakers don't give you the very best of the very best shaftwoods. i notice some of the very picky players turn their cue to the spot they want before shooting......it makes a difference to them. for me it's all about feel....if it feels good, i play better. predator "feels" fake to me.
 
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While of occasonal academic interest, ultimately the deflection topic is a lot of bull. Even those inexplicably, and almost comically, obsessed with the subject readily concede that squirt, swerve and deflection are ultimately inseparable in the study of how the cue ball is delivered for given strokes. Yet, far too often, it is the very people who concede this point that attempt to consider the deflection topic in a vacuum.

Want to master deflection, swerve, and squirt? Go practice. If you think you can only do so using a Predator shaft, then you are victim of a growing myth poupularized not only by those at Predator but by many others who'd rather sell you a $200 shaft rather than a $100 shaft. The Predator is different, not better. If you like paying a premium price for a product that simply doesn't qualify as premium, a Predator shaft is a wise choice.

Let's face it, the top players master the variables of squirt, swerve and deflection for given strokes and speed through pracitce, repetition and experience, not through the application of science.
 
i'm still at a loss for what this thread is actually about............ :confused:



all shafts will have some sort of deflection...........fact is fact............

does the ball go where you intend it to when you hit it??? if not........keep practicing........

VAP
 
drivermaker said:
fuck Ron Shepard and fuck Bob Jewett both on their obsession with deflection. They're both PH.D's that can't play a lick and as FL always used to say...that stands for post hole diggers!

Bob Jewett can kick some ass. No kidding, Drivermaker, he's a strong player. He tempers the science with the street knowledge - that's why I like reading his stuff.

Chris
 
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