# Derby City Prize Fund

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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A note about the tapered payouts: I think it is a good idea for every prize to be at least the entry fee. That means that if you pay a lot of players, you may need to add in a constant to make sure the minimum is the entry fee. A different way to handle that is to pay the lowest paid round their entry fee -- you don't know how many will be in that round -- and then calculate the taper for the number remaining.

How you make the decision on which is the lowest round to be paid needs to be stated. If you say "top 20" and then you have a 10-way tie for 18 through 27 the payout for those players will be pretty skimpy. I suppose you could just go with the calculation.

#### DragosLucian

##### New member
Bob this may sound dumb so go easy on me How would the %'s change with changing field sizes? Say a 32-64 man field vs. a big one(100+)? Thanx
Establishing the percentages is not the problem here.

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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Bob this may sound dumb so go easy on me How would the %'s change with changing field sizes? Say a 32-64 man field vs. a big one(100+)? Thanx
The main decision is how deep you are going to pay. In general, the deeper you pay, the smaller percentage the top player gets. In a single-elimination format, it is typical to drop the payout by half for each level. If you pay three levels the winner gets 50%. If you have a large tournament and pay six levels with halving (32 paid), the winner gets 2/7 or 28%. Many tournaments make the decrease more gradual, and then first place pays a smaller percentage.

The tapering formula I gave above (100/N) will result in a percentage close to single-elimination with halving.

#### FeelDaShot

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Did you look at those links i posted? The one on pool4u has a pretty good breakdown. I don't get what you're saying here.
With this format, there is the possibility of several people being tied for the same place and you have no way of knowing how many ties there will be.

For example let's look at the 9-ball results from this year:

9-Ball:
Round 15: 1st Place; \$16,000 x 1 player = \$16,000
Round 14: 2nd Place; \$7,500 x 1 player = \$7,500
Round 13: 3rd Place; \$5,500 x 1 player = \$5,500
Round 12: 4th Place; \$4,000 x 1 player = \$4,000
Round 11: 5th - 7th Place; \$3,100 x 3 players = \$9,300
Round 10: 8th - 10th Place; \$2,300 x 3 players = \$6,900
Round 9: 11th - 16th Place; \$1,700 x 6 players = \$10,200
Round 8: 17th - 25th Place; \$1,100 x 9 players = \$9,900
Round 7: 26th - 34th Place; \$700 x 9 players = \$6,300
Round 6: 35th - 58th Place; \$400 x 24 players = \$9,600
Round 5: 59th - 81st Place; \$300 x 23 players = \$6,900
Round 4: 82nd - 128th Place; \$250 x 47 players = \$11,750

Total Prize Fund: \$103,850

As shown above, situations come up where multiple players are knocked out in the same round so they all tie/share a place. Unlike a typical bracketed tournament, it's impossible to predict how many places will be tied with each other so figuring out payouts is very tough.

You definitely have to payout per round. You can determine the approximate percentage of the field you want to payout (i.e. 25%). Then you can decide how much you want first and second place to be paid, since those places cannot be tied. Then you can decide how much the lowest payout would be, (i.e. 10% of remaining prize money). Then you will need to keep recalculating payouts as the tournament progresses ensuring that the next payout is higher than the last and they are all tiered relatively equally. It gets pretty complicated. Good luck!

#### garczar

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
With this format, there is the possibility of several people being tied for the same place and you have no way of knowing how many ties there will be.

For example let's look at the 9-ball results from this year:

9-Ball:
Round 15: 1st Place; \$16,000 x 1 player = \$16,000
Round 14: 2nd Place; \$7,500 x 1 player = \$7,500
Round 13: 3rd Place; \$5,500 x 1 player = \$5,500
Round 12: 4th Place; \$4,000 x 1 player = \$4,000
Round 11: 5th - 7th Place; \$3,100 x 3 players = \$9,300
Round 10: 8th - 10th Place; \$2,300 x 3 players = \$6,900
Round 9: 11th - 16th Place; \$1,700 x 6 players = \$10,200
Round 8: 17th - 25th Place; \$1,100 x 9 players = \$9,900
Round 7: 26th - 34th Place; \$700 x 9 players = \$6,300
Round 6: 35th - 58th Place; \$400 x 24 players = \$9,600
Round 5: 59th - 81st Place; \$300 x 23 players = \$6,900
Round 4: 82nd - 128th Place; \$250 x 47 players = \$11,750

Total Prize Fund: \$103,850

As shown above, situations come up where multiple players are knocked out in the same round so they all tie/share a place. Unlike a typical bracketed tournament, it's impossible to predict how many places will be tied with each other so figuring out payouts is very tough.

You definitely have to payout per round. You can determine the approximate percentage of the field you want to payout (i.e. 25%). Then you can decide how much you want first and second place to be paid, since those places cannot be tied. Then you can decide how much the lowest payout would be, (i.e. 10% of remaining prize money). Then you will need to keep recalculating payouts as the tournament progresses ensuring that the next payout is higher than the last and they are all tiered relatively equally. It gets pretty complicated. Good luck!
this shit is way above my pay grade.

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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... Then you will need to keep recalculating payouts as the tournament progresses ensuring that the next payout is higher than the last and they are all tiered relatively equally. It gets pretty complicated. Good luck!
It looks like they are doing some kind of rounding for each round. They seem to pay the entry fee (entry plus buy-back = about \$250) at the lowest level. The tapering at the bottom is pretty gradual: \$250/\$300/\$400.

#### ChrisinNC

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have had that happen in threads I started. You can't correct it once posted.
Yes you can, apparently you figured it out.

#### middleofnowhere

##### Registered
Yes you can, apparently you figured it out.
I have had one fixed by the moderator once but I don't know how to do it.

#### Z-Nole

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I like the fact that the Master of the Table pays more than winning an individual division.

#### FeelDaShot

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It looks like they are doing some kind of rounding for each round. They seem to pay the entry fee (entry plus buy-back = about \$250) at the lowest level. The tapering at the bottom is pretty gradual: \$250/\$300/\$400

I looked at the 9-ball payouts from 2015 to present and the payouts all follow a very close structure. Here's the trend that I noticed:
1. 1st Place is always \$16,000.
2. 2nd Place is typically \$8,000, or very close.
3. The lowest round always pays \$250 (entry fee returned/broke even)
4. The second lowest round always pays \$300 (entry fee + \$50 profit)
5. Going forward, the payouts increase by ±66% and are rounded to the nearest \$50 or \$100.

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#### FeelDaShot

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I looked at the 9-ball payouts from 2015 to present and the payouts all follow a very close structure. Here's the trend that I noticed:
1. 1st Place is always \$16,000.
2. 2nd Place is typically \$8,000, or very close.
3. The lowest round always pays \$250 (entry fee returned/broke even)
4. The second lowest round always pays \$300 (entry fee + \$50 profit)
5. Going forward, the payouts increase by ±66% at each level and are rounded to the nearest multiple of \$50.
2022
16000
8650
6250
4000
2750
1750
1,000
550
400
300
250

2020
16000
8000
5350
3850
2600
1600
1000
600
400
300
250

2019
16000
8000
6000
3950
2800
2000
1300
700
400
300
250

2018
16000
8000
3950
2700
1500
900
600
400
300
250

2017
16000
8000
5650
3500
1500
900
600
400
300
250

2016
16000
7250
5300
4000
3000
2100
1250
850
500
300
250

2015
16000
8000
4750
3150
2100
1250
750
450
300
250

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I looked at the 9-ball payouts from 2015 to present and the payouts all follow a very close structure. Here's the trend that I noticed:
1. 1st Place is always \$16,000.
2. 2nd Place is typically \$8,000, or very close.
3. The lowest round always pays \$250 (entry fee returned/broke even)
4. The second lowest round always pays \$300 (entry fee + \$50 profit)
5. Going forward, the payouts increase by ±66% at each level and are rounded to the nearest multiple of \$50.
That seems like a reasonable way to do it. If there are only a few eliminated in a round, the increase from the previous round should be smaller than the 66% average bump.

#### Bahgs

##### Member
Sure
50% to the field
50% to Fedor

Easy peasy.

Sorry. Maybe someone could help you out but you may need to be more specific. I do think the master of the table money comes from the buyback pot.
it really do be like that

#### DragosLucian

##### New member
My tournament is small, 50-ish players and the money prize comes from the buy-ins and rebuys.
I cannot afford to guarantee a certain amount of money as they do it at DCC, but thanks to you all, now I have an idee on how to do it.
Thanks a lot, guys!

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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Gold Member
Silver Member
My tournament is small, 50-ish players and the money prize comes from the buy-ins and rebuys.
I cannot afford to guarantee a certain amount of money as they do it at DCC, but thanks to you all, now I have an idee on how to do it.
Thanks a lot, guys!
Rather than the DCC buy-back format, you might consider this other format. It allows early birds to enter more than twice and I think it is much easier to schedule. The final rounds are much easier to understand since they are straight single elimination.

#### DragosLucian

##### New member
I am tight on schedule and cannot afford people to buyback unlimited time, I only have 9 tables for two days (max 14 hours per day).
TBF your system looks more complex than the DCC style.
Rather than the DCC buy-back format, you might consider this other format. It allows early birds to enter more than twice and I think it is much easier to schedule. The final rounds are much easier to understand since they are straight single elimination.

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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I am tight on schedule and cannot afford people to buyback unlimited time, I only have 9 tables for two days (max 14 hours per day).
TBF your system looks more complex than the DCC style.
My system is just a bunch of 8-player minis to qualify for the Day 2 finals in your situation. You can end the minis whenever you want.

The huge advantage of my system versus the DCC style is that you can keep the tables busy. Unless you guess at who will be eliminated and who will buy back, you have to wait until a round is almost done before you can start the next round. That means that tables will be empty. That is wasted time. It has been a huge problem at DCC.

With my system you can start the first round as soon as you have 16 players in the room. Each group of 8 requires 7 matches to find a finalist for Day 2. If the matches take an hour, in 14 hours on 9 tables, you have plenty of time for 112 matches which is 16 groups of 8 players (128 entries). That leaves all of Day 2 for the 16 finalists to play off. Make those matches longer -- two hours. If you start at noon, you are done by 8 or 9 PM.