Dragon World 14.1 Tournament, is still the World 14.1 Championships

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
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For my money it's stupid for pool to even have a world championship. I said years ago that it would be far better to have a Grand Slam scenario, and structure the year around four large tournaments promoted in different regions by different bodies, along the lines of tennis and golf. Having multiple governing bodies and independent events all competing to have their own 'World Championship' where they either try to out do each other, or worse try and ruin each others' events' credibility or whatever benefits no one. In the Grand Slam structure the promoters and governing bodies can all make their events as big as they want, and it only serves to benefit the game, and of course the players.

And the determination of which events would be considered majors would be made by the evolution of the support by the players, fans and followers of the game rather than by some arbitrary sanction by a specific group.
 

azhousepro

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What does the WPA have to do with either of these events? They are not being called World Championships.

If we ran an event and called it the "Championship of the Universe", the WPA would have nothing to do with it and would not have to put out a press release stating that the event was not a World Championship.

Mike

Sorry, I didn't fully read this thread but out of curiosity.. how does the WPA regard "World Pool Masters" and the "World Cup of Pool"?
 

azhousepro

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I think part of the confusion here is over the word "World" in the tournament title.

The WPA did not put out a press release because Dragon was referring to the event as the World Tournament of 14.1. They put out the press release because Dragon is trying to blur the lines between the World Championship and their event.

In the past, Dragon had the sanctioning from the WPA to run the World 14.1 Championship. They no longer have that sanctioning from the WPA so they are now calling their event the World Tournament of 14.1 and borrowing the history of the World Championship to apply it to their event.

I don't think anyone is asking the players to "boycott" the World Tournament of 14.1. Personally, I think it is great that there is a high dollar 14.1 event for people to play in. Every chance that these players have to bring home some money is a positive thing in this economy.

But to call this event a World Championship when you know it isn't, or to tell players that this is a BCA Points event, when you know it isn't is just wrong.

Mike
 

azhousepro

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Neil, the WPA is more than just a group of guys who claim they are the governing body of pool.

They are the accepted governing body of pool by the federations that make up the game. The BCA, EPBF, ABU, etc all accept the WPA as the governing body of pool. And the members of the federations elect the board for the WPA.

The WPA doesn't really need the recognition of the masses. Since they have the recognition of the federations. If the federations all got together and said they didn't agree with the decisions of the WPA, then some other group could be elected.

I also disagree with your statement about the travel being just a perk for the WPA. Yes, companies meet over the internet all the time. But we are talking about trying to negotiate and convince someone to throw hundreds of thousands of dollars at a pool tournament where they really don't stand to make any money back. Do you think you would have much of a chance to convince the Crown Prince of Brunei to give you a couple hundred thousand dollars with an email or a teleconference? I doubt it.

You also contradict yourself later in your message. The WPA should help determine what a pro player is and a pro event should only be pro players? Then how do you support a supposed "World Championship" that pulls players from the stands to fill it's fields?

A sanctioned WPA World Championship has a field of players who either earned their spot based on their play in events sanctioned by their federations or who won their way into the field through a qualifier sanctioned by the WPA.

Mike

Mike and Jerry- thanks for the post that explains the WPA a little better.

While that post does explain their side, I don't believe it is the final say so. They make some good points, but are lacking many other points. Bottom line is, they are just another of several organizations. They lay claim to wanting to unite pool, yet all they really do is say that so much $$ has to be added, and then skim a bunch of those $$$ off the top.

They say they want to unite pool by saying only THEIR sanctioned tournaments are world championships. THEIRS are the only ones that count! They won't even recognize the BCA World Champions!

I tend to see it a lot like boxing. There are many federations, all recognized with no problem. They don't recognize each others as their champions, but nevertheless DO recognize them as champions under a different federation.

To me, if the WPA wants the recognition of the masses, they need to do a lot more than just make up a set of rules for their organization, claim to be the only recognized body of pool, and collect dollars.

As far as the WPA having to send reps all over the world for their events, that's just a perk they set up for themselves. There is no need to spend all that money on travel. Not with the internet in place! Other business do business over the internet every day, no reason they can't also. That's just a slap in the face to those having to pay sanction fees. At least Dragon Promotions actually tries to promote pool. The WPA doesn't even do that.

If the WPA wants to be recognized as the final authority in pool, they need to actually start doing something for pool besides demanding $$. For one, if it's a pro tournament, it should only be pros. So.... first question would be, what and who is a pro?? What are the requirements to being a pro? What advantages does being a pro have that being an unlisted player doesn't have? In other words, if they want to be the head of a professional organization, then do something for it besides demanding that they are the head and an ridiculous amount of money has to be added or it doesn't count. What are THEY doing to help get that amount of money added? Or do they just collect "their" share of it after someone else does all the work?

I don't agree with some of C. Williams decisions either, but at least his organization actually does something for the betterment of pool other than saying they do something and coming up with another set of rules.
 

azhousepro

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You might want to check with Greg Sullivan as he would know, but I am pretty sure that name is copywritten and you would immediately be told that you couldn't do that.

And if you continued to refer to your event as the Olympics, you would be told again that you knew you were really not running the Olympics.

And when your event started and you were using the history of the Olympics to promote your event, I imagine the Olympic committee might put out PR that disassociates themselves from your event and clears up the fact that you are not really running the Olympics.

And then a player would probably write a letter supporting your event.

And we would run it on AzB.

And then we would all debate it for a while.

Mike

I was thinking the same thing. I'm toying with the idea of holding a tournament this year and calling it "The Olympics". Since there is no other bigger event this year calling itself the Olympics, I suppose the winner of my pool tournament should go down in the record books as an Olympic Champion.
 

azhousepro

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Neil, we are both on the same page in that we don't agree with everything that goes on out there. I agree and disagree with a lot that Dragon does, but I also do the same with the WPA, the BCA, the EPBF and CSI.

I do know that some World Championships are handled by a promoter. When Yen Makabenta held the World 10-Ball, he found his own sponsors for the event. Certainly having the WPA sanction helped him in that respect.

Other events required the WPA rep to travel and meet with people who were interested in running an event but needed more information. I do know that Ian has met with the Crown Prince multiple times.

I believe the qualifier way of getting into a World Championship is a requirement of some kind. Not really sure on that one.

Mike
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
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Hi lou.
I know of a person who was there as a spectator and was invited to play (which he did) - and I believe there wer a few others.

That would have been 2-3 years ago.

That really is ok for a tournament if circumstances cause an opening, but for a world tournament- it should not be appropriate because for a true world event, players must qualify.

Mark griffin


Well, it sure don't seem right, that's for sure.

Lou Figueroa
 

cleary

Honestly, I'm a liar.
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Hi lou.
I know of a person who was there as a spectator and was invited to play (which he did) - and I believe there wer a few others.

That would have been 2-3 years ago.

That really is ok for a tournament if circumstances cause an opening, but for a world tournament- it should not be appropriate because for a true world event, players must qualify.

Mark griffin

I know of at least one player in the field that is considered a B player in our area. (meaning I would bet against him running 35 balls with an open table)

And I was sent a text saying there was one spot left and if I wanted to play. I didn't want to show anyone up, so I said no.
 

Mark Griffin

AzB Silver Member
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14.1

I know of at least one player in the field that is considered a B player in our area. (meaning I would bet against him running 35 balls with an open table)

And I was sent a text saying there was one spot left and if I wanted to play. I didn't want to show anyone up, so I said no.

Cleary,

If you were worried about 'showing someone up' - I don't think that was a valid reason for not agreeing to play.

I think your opinion of your pool playing skills now rivals 'Big Tony's' opinions.

You guys from New York are 'sumpton else'!!!

Markg
 

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
You might want to check with Greg Sullivan as he would know, but I am pretty sure that name is copywritten and you would immediately be told that you couldn't do that.

And if you continued to refer to your event as the Olympics, you would be told again that you knew you were really not running the Olympics.

And when your event started and you were using the history of the Olympics to promote your event, I imagine the Olympic committee might put out PR that disassociates themselves from your event and clears up the fact that you are not really running the Olympics.

And then a player would probably write a letter supporting your event.

And we would run it on AzB.

And then we would all debate it for a while.

Mike

I don't have to check, I'm pretty confident the Olympic brand is protected, but that wasn't the point. It was just another way of saying that just because you call something a World Championship doesn't make it so. ;)
 

gromulan

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And the determination of which events would be considered majors would be made by the evolution of the support by the players, fans and followers of the game rather than by some arbitrary sanction by a specific group.

Well in theory that's how it would work, but it might take some help to get going. An organization like the WPA and the BCA, plus whatever else is out there, could form something like a 'Grand Slam Committee' to try and help get each of the respective events to the needed status, then hopefully let them grow from there. That sort of happened in tennis back in the day.

Regardless, having something called a 'world championship' in a sport like pool, where there are literally dozens of players who can win any particular event, is patently ridiculous. It's not like boxing where your heavyweight champion is basically the toughest boxer on earth, in pool any high-level player can put together a reasonable week and contend in, if not win, a single tournament -- especially when you factor in the soft conditions at a lot of events, big pockets and new cloth, plus the absurdly short races -- and that ruins the credibility of the event just as surely as anything.

I mean let's face it, Daryl Peach is a nice guy and an excellent player, but is he the best player in the world? Would you seriously compare him to a Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson in boxing? I don't think so, and not to take anything away from Peach necessarily, but pool just isn't that kind of sport, it's far more like tennis or golf in that it's much more about consistency at the high level then it is about some single event. That being the case, why not copy them? To me that just makes a lot of sense.
 

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
Well in theory that's how it would work, but it might take some help to get going. An organization like the WPA and the BCA, plus whatever else is out there, could form something like a 'Grand Slam Committee' to try and help get each of the respective events to the needed status, then hopefully let them grow from there. That sort of happened in tennis back in the day.

Regardless, having something called a 'world championship' in a sport like pool, where there are literally dozens of players who can win any particular event, is patently ridiculous. It's not like boxing where your heavyweight champion is basically the toughest boxer on earth, in pool any high-level player can put together a reasonable week and contend in, if not win, a single tournament -- especially when you factor in the soft conditions at a lot of events, big pockets and new cloth, plus the absurdly short races -- and that ruins the credibility of the event just as surely as anything.

I mean let's face it, Daryl Peach is a nice guy and an excellent player, but is he the best player in the world? Would you seriously compare him to a Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson in boxing? I don't think so, and not to take anything away from Peach necessarily, but pool just isn't that kind of sport, it's far more like tennis or golf in that it's much more about consistency at the high level then it is about some single event.

And then there are events that are considered to be for a World Championship but the winner is generally not thought of in the same regard as most Champions, even sometime in relation to the guy he beat. Think Buster Douglas. :D
 

pro9dg

AzB Silver Member
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An organization like the WPA and the BCA, plus whatever else is out there, could form something like a 'Grand Slam Committee' to try and help get each of the respective events to the needed status,
I mean let's face it, Daryl Peach is a nice guy and an excellent player, but is he the best player in the world? Would you seriously compare him to a Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson in boxing?


Why on Earth would another committee be needed, The WPA have the mandate of the continental federations. They are composed of a reasonably intelligent bunch of men who are capable of achieving their goals. Just at the moment they are stymied by the global economy and I have in the past been critical of their lack of ambition to aim for a higher platform. But I understand their need to accept lower sponsorship just to keep the game turning over. There are ways to improve their aspirations and I will not refrain from constructively criticising them in the future.

The general tone of this thread seems to imply that the USA in someways is the Engine Room of the Game. That is no longer the case. US Pool has drifted into a backwater and cuesports are more mainstream in Asia, Europe, Philippines and the MIddle East. Today only a handful of US pro players can compete at World level.

Daryl Peach (by his own admission) is not the best player in the game but he went to the World Championship with a goal - to be World Champion and he achieved it. That feat is written in the record books for all time. Peach is not the only Brit with this mindset. Darren Appleton.Karl Boyes can claim World Champion status and Chris Melling is a Champ Waiting To Happen. Only Earl has reached that pinnacle for America in the last two decades.
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
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From the WPA site......

These efforts culminated in February 1990, when 48 players (32 men, 16 women, in separate divisions) participated in the inaugural WPA World Nine-Ball Championship in Bergheim, Germany. The event is now annual and is currently conducted in Qatar.

So in 1990 they had a 32 player field and crowned the winner as World Champion????

I am sure that this can be rationalized based on the fact that the WPA was in a fledgling state.... Not unlike the DP 14.1 WORLD tournament??? Surprises me no one has stepped up to deny that the first WPA 9ball tournament winners are world champions.... Anyone want to call Earl???

During the 80s we had the Brunswick World Open 9ball tournaments.... Who sanctioned them?

On another line of thinking... In the days of the true world championships the title was decided for the year in an invitational round robin and then had to be defended against challengers... Makes sense if someone pulls one out their butt that the best player in the world could simply challenge the player and take the title... In boxing you beat the reigning world champion if you want to be one...

The current formats employed in the WPA Wold Championships are far less stringent and can have a player sneak thru a weak bracket.... I am in no way saying Antonio Lining is not among the elite but he finished tied for 49th at the US Open and was 1 match from being the world champion were it not for Django both in 2010.

In essence you can be crowned world champion but in reality you are the defending champion of WPA tournament x...... When you go 2 and out a month later you are still the Reigning World Champion...

Pool needs a sanctioning body but the WPA seems to be missing the mark. The world title for any discipline should be decided by a 16 player round robin. There should be a monthly qualifier for entrance into the round robin, with the top 4 finishers from the prior year being extended an invitation....

There should be events that earn points into the 12 qualifiers held year round. You can even extend this a level to smaller tournaments needed to qualify to even play in the points events....

You want people to watch give them a National Champion and let them sing their national anthem as their player strides out to do battle with the best in the world for the crown.... Don't expect them to recognize your Wold Champion when the draw had an influence in the crowning and the Champion didn't have to play the ALL of the best players in the world to win the crown.....
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
It's really simple. History belongs to the person who wields the pen. The Billiard Congress of America maintains the record book. The BCA is the North American member of the WPA. So any person who wants to have their name recorded as a World Champion in the record book has to win a WPA sanctioned World Championship.

An event can be named whatever someone wants to as long as that something is not in violation of someone else's intellectual property. Events use deceptive marketing all the time to lure participants and spectators and backers. People on the outside always want to be on the inside.

There are many ways that Dragon could market this event that draw on the rich history of the game without making it into a conflict with the WPA. Of course the allure is being crowned WORLD champion. But what is that worth when it's not lastingly recorded?

If Dragon Promotions wants to crown true world champions then they need to create their own competing organization and be completely separate from the BCA/WPA. Put out their own rule books, their own hall of fame, their own records books. In the end history will decide who gets honored as true world champions and who does not.

The media should then correctly identify the winners as WPA World Champions, or DP World Champions. In the absence of cooperation their should at least be distinction. Blurring the lines does no good and only invites confusion. The winner of the ongoing 14.1 event might feel like a world champion and some people might call him a world champion but officially he won't be recorded as a world champion.
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The general tone of this thread seems to imply that the USA in someways is the Engine Room of the Game. That is no longer the case. US Pool has drifted into a backwater and cuesports are more mainstream in Asia, Europe, Philippines and the MIddle East. Today only a handful of US pro players can compete at World level.

I can't let this go by without providing my thoughts. Yes, Doug, you tickled the trout. :D

Only a handful of U.S. pro players can compete on a world level due to finances, but this has nothing to do with talent. As most know, there is currently no men's organization or tour in the States, and the BCA, that so-called representative body to the precious WPA, hasn't been very much involved in professional pool. :(

pro9dg said:
Daryl Peach (by his own admission) is not the best player in the game but he went to the World Championship with a goal - to be World Champion and he achieved it. That feat is written in the record books for all time.

Well, let's revisit that World Championship tournament held in Philippines. Peach won it with the bird break. The rules were changed thereafter because of all players in that tournament utilizing the bird break. I'm not saying Daryl Peach is not a champion-level player, because I know he is. And he won that World Championship fair and square. Everybody played with the same rules and same conditions. Peach had the best bird break.

pro9dg said:
Peach is not the only Brit with this mindset. Darren Appleton. Karl Boyes can claim World Champion status and Chris Melling is a Champ Waiting To Happen. Only Earl has reached that pinnacle for America in the last two decades.

Darren Appelton is on a tear right now, and I am actively watching him win tournament after tournament ever since the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship. The United States has our own set of Karl Boyes and Chris Mellings, but without a functioning BCA involved in professional pool and lack of industry member sponsorship for the majority of American players, these diamonds in the rough may never shine brightly. I hope things change for the better. :smile:
 

DippyD

Banned
I can't let this go by without providing my thoughts. Yes, Doug, you tickled the trout. :D

Only a handful of U.S. pro players can compete on a world level due to finances, but this has nothing to do with talent. As most know, there is currently no men's organization or tour in the States, and the BCA, that so-called representative body to the precious WPA, hasn't been very much involved in professional pool. :(



Well, let's revisit that World Championship tournament held in Philippines. Peach won it with the bird break. The rules were changed thereafter because of all players in that tournament utilizing the bird break. I'm not saying Daryl Peach is not a champion-level player, because I know he is. And he won that World Championship fair and square. Everybody played with the same rules and same conditions. Peach had the best bird break.



Darren Appelton is on a tear right now, and I am actively watching him win tournament after tournament ever since the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship. The United States has our own set of Karl Boyes and Chris Mellings, but without a functioning BCA involved in professional pool and lack of industry member sponsorship for the majority of American players, these diamonds in the rough may never shine brightly. I hope things change for the better. :smile:


If you dont blame the current american players for the state of pool you can blame the past, the ones ythat got caught. dont blame anyone before you blame the players.
 
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