Eagle Eye Takes Aim at 14.1 High Runs

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
The pocket castings on a GC have a throat opening of 4 5/16"s and its at that point on both side of the pocket casting that the miter angles swing out wider in oder to make the mouth bigger than the throat. If you start with the mouth of the pocket being 5" and open the throat of the pocket, all you're going to end up doing is creating a step from the end of the facing in the throat being wider than the pocket casting, which is clearly visible in the picture I posted. No camera angle can change that view, clearly showing the throat of the pocket being wider than the pocket casting as well as the pocket liner itself too. If you tighten the pockets, to say around 4 1/8" - 4" then you have to open the throat of the pocket up, so the miter angles defect the balls deeper in the throat making it possible to pocket balls, if you don't open the throat up with 4" pockets you won't be pocketing shit, and will even have a hard time reaching in the drop pocket to get the balls out, because you won't have any room for your hand to hold and balls and pull them out.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
John Schmidt Equipment List
14.1 Challenge IV

Easy Street Billiards
Monterey, California

  • Rebco Pocket Billiard Table 4-1/2 x 9
  • Drop Pockets - No Ball Return
  • Simonis 760 Tournament Cloth Green
  • 5-inch Corner Pockets
  • 5-1/2 inch Side Pockets
  • Sardo Rack
  • Super Aramith Pro Belgian Billiard Balls
  • Predator P3 Red Butt
  • Predator Revo 12.4mm Carbon Composite Shaft
  • 19.5 oz and 58 inches
  • Techno Dud Tip by Outsville
  • Taom Pyro Blue Chalk
  • Predator Second Skin Billiard Glove
  • Predator Urbain 3x5 Hard Case Red
There are no rules. JS proved that beyond a doubt. Gimmicked everything involved. Been given a 2-1/2 year free pass. Same professors of
faith for one player, but not for any others, who just went to a venue and played what was there.
Just saying!...
I've said my piece. Call me whomever you wish.
But the pockets were stock pockets for that Rebco table, thats the difference.
 

Johnny Rosato

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The pocket castings on a GC have a throat opening of 4 5/16"s and its at that point on both side of the pocket casting that the miter angles swing out wider in oder to make the mouth bigger than the throat. If you start with the mouth of the pocket being 5" and open the throat of the pocket, all you're going to end up doing is creating a step from the end of the facing in the throat being wider than the pocket casting, which is clearly visible in the picture I posted. No camera angle can change that view, clearly showing the throat of the pocket being wider than the pocket casting as well as the pocket liner itself too. If you tighten the pockets, to say around 4 1/8" - 4" then you have to open the throat of the pocket up, so the miter angles defect the balls deeper in the throat making it possible to pocket balls, if you don't open the throat up with 4" pockets you won't be pocketing shit, and will even have a hard time reaching in the drop pocket to get the balls out, because you won't have any room for your hand to hold and balls and pull them out.
Now that you explained it, I think you're onto something here 'ol buddy!
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are but those are generally tight pocket tables not 5" buckets.
Has been said on here many times, it’s not the 5 inch mouth that makes this table play so forgiving, it’s the parallel pocket facing angles!

It’s just a shame that such an incredible accomplishment will now be scrutinized because of this. Still without question, the best 14.1 shotmaking performance in history - 51 consecutive racks, 51 consecutive successful break shots!
 
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realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
The current WPA specs are not all that old. For years the BCA specs were 4&7/8" to 5&1/8" corners and 5&3/8" to 5&5/8" sides.
You missed the rest of the specs, here, let me help you out.

Corner Pocket
Mouth: 4 1/8” minimum to 5 1/8” maximum
Angle: Entrance on each side of the pocket 142° (±1°)

Side Pocket
Mouth between 4 7/8” minimum to 5 5/8” maximum

Angle: Entrance on each side of the pocket 103° (±2°)

Vertical Pocket Angle
Angle: 12° minimum to 15° maximum

Its NOT the pocket mouth opening that is the controversy, its the miter angles altered to make the pockets huge in order to accept balls much easier!!!!
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I don't much care - but it makes all this high run stuff just entertainment, not really setting "records".
Same honestly... I'm of the line of thinking that for the most part pocket dimensions don't matter. You don't play 14.1 on 4.125" pockets. Just like you don't play 1pkt on 5" pockets
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
It’s just a shame that such an incredible accomplishment will now be scrutinized because of this. Still without question, the best 14.1 shotmaking performance in history - 51 consecutive racks, 51 successful break shots!
I really don't think it will be... unless those willing to scruntize have some level of bias toward John S.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member

9. POCKET OPENINGS AND MEASUREMENTS​

Only rubber facings of minimum 1/16 [1.5875 mm] to maximum ¼ inch [6.35 mm] thick may be used at pocket jaws. The WPA-preferred maximum thickness for facings is 1/8 inch [3.175 mm]. The facings on both sides of the pockets must be of the same thickness. Facings must be of hard re-enforced rubber glued with strong bond to the cushion and the rail, and adequately fastened to the wood rail liner to prevent shifting. The rubber of the facings should be somewhat harder than that of the cushions.

The pocket openings for pool tables are measured between opposing cushion noses where the direction changes into the pocket (from pointed lip to pointed lip). This is called mouth.

Corner Pocket Mouth: between 4.5 [11.43 cm] and 4.625 inches [11.75 cm]
Side Pocket Mouth: between 5 [12.7 cm] and 5.125 inches [13.0175 cm]
*The mouth of the side pocket is traditionally ½ inch [1.27 cm] wider than
the mouth of the corner pocket.

Vertical Pocket Angle (Back Draft): 12 degrees minimum to15 degrees maximum.

Horizontal Pocket Cut Angle: The angle must be the same on both sides of a pocket entrance. The cut angles of the rubber cushion and its wood backing (rail liner) for both sides of the corner pocket entrance must be 142 degrees (+1). The cut angles of the rubber cushion and its wood backing (rail liner) for both sides of the side pocket entrance must be 104 degrees (+1).

Shelf: The shelf is measured from the center of the imaginary line that goes from one side of the mouth to the other – where the nose of the cushion changes direction – to the vertical cut of the slate pocket cut. Shelf includes bevel.

Corner Pocket Shelf: between 1 [2.54 cm] and 2 ¼ inches [5.715 cm]
Side Pocket Shelf: between 0 and .375 inches [.9525 cm]
And the pocket miter angles in this table are about 135 degrees, so how far off is that compared to 142 degrees? Just so you're aware, each degree is equal to about 1/16" of an inch in throat opening, per side!
 

Johnny Rosato

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And the pocket miter angles in this table are about 135 degrees, so how far off is that compared to 142 degrees? Just so you're aware, each degree is equal to about 1/16" of an inch in throat opening, per side!
So that equals 0.4375" or about 1/2". You really are good at this stuff.
 

kanzzo

hobby player
And the pocket miter angles in this table are about 135 degrees, so how far off is that compared to 142 degrees? Just so you're aware, each degree is equal to about 1/16" of an inch in throat opening, per side!
I understand that you don't have time to read all the posts. You are very busy writing and arguing with like 12 people simultaniously
I have no idea why the organisators don't provide the exact measurements. I had guessed from the photos that the angle is around 137-138°
(135° would made for absolutely parallel facings, so the angle must be a little above 135° but probably less then 142° that are normally on a Brunswick table. I had a GCIII for 5 years and owe a GCV and the angle is 142° on my table at home)

Dr Dave provided a nice system with TDF to compare, how different variations in pocket measurements change the difficulty of the table.
The 5'' pockets make it 9% easier
The flat shelf makes it 5% easier
The pocket angle makes it 3% easier.

Combined (since you have to multiply the numbers) it makes for an 16% easier table. So the pocket angle is a relevant factor but it's the smallest one.
135° is 7° less then 142°. Did I get the right answer? How long did it take you for this calculation?

I did agree, that the angle looks less then 142°. My guess from the photos provided was, that it's 137-138°. (That would make for 4-5° difference. How is my math so far?)
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
The easiest way to end ALL this talk about the corner pockets being gaffed up, is to ether show the throat measurement, or put 2 balls in the throat of the pocket as far back as they'll sit, touching both sides of the pocket so gap between the balls is clearly visible in the picture, but then, that would expose the truth, and that's NOT happening!!
 

7stud

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
With 43 racks on the counter and 6 object balls on the table, Jayson and Bobby celebrate "627", but

43 x 14 = 602

so no matter how many balls are left on the table/sunk, you can't reach 627. Obviously, the counter must have been off. I rewound the video, and Bobby forgot to increment the counter to 44, so Jason was shooting on the 45th rack. But 44 racks is:

44 racks x 14 balls/rack = 616 balls

With 6 object balls left on the table for the 45th rack, there were 9 balls in the pockets, so

616 + 9 = 625

Did they celebrate early?
 
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puma122

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am guessing you are correct, it's not happening. In the end, who cares? I think we can pretty much consider it a fact this table was setup about as easy as possible. That said, 714 is enormous. I takes nothing away from Jayson. In my mind, it has been good for pool, strengthens what John did, and I am looking forward to seeing what Filler, Gorst, or another shot for Ruslan and even SVB...I cannot imagine coming into this knowing the high watermark for this event is 714. Daunting.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I understand that you don't have time to read all the posts. You are very busy writing and arguing with like 12 people simultaniously

135° is 7° less then 142°. Did I get the right answer? How long did it take you for this calculation?

I did agree, that the angle looks less then 142°. My guess from the photos provided was, that it's 137-138°. (That would make for 4-5° difference. How is my math so far?)
Then according to your math, the 2 balls in the throat of the pocket should lock up against each other, because 2 balls wide equal 4 1/2" inches wide. I bet they don't touch each other at all in the throat!!
 

Texas Carom Club

pool is stupid and i hate all of you
Silver Member
With 43 racks on the counter and 6 object balls on the table, Jayson and Bobby celebrate "627". Obviously, the counter must have been off. I rewound the video, and Bobby forgot to increment the counter to 44, so Jason was shooting on the 45th rack. But 44 racks is:

44 racks x 14 balls/rack = 616 balls

With 6 object balls left on the table for the 45th rack, there are 9 balls in the pockets, so

616 + 9 = 625

Did they celebrate early?
Could have but doesn't mean anything
 
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