Elbow Drop:Yes,no or maybe so

R

recoveryjones

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In an effort to have my stroke analyised(visual and video) and fine tuned, I've sought out some help from a BCA instuctor.He had me line up long straight in pots and then informed me what he saw wrong with my stroke.

I made several straight in stun shots and the cue ball stopped dead in it's tracks, with no spin on the cueball as it stopped.I allways thought that if the cue ball stopped dead in its tracks and wasn't spinning that, that was a good shot if you also made the pot.To me what the cue ball does after contact on a straight in is a good indicator of whether a stroke was a good one or not.

My instructor told me that my elbow was dropping a few inches(other times even more, even on my good shots) and that we need to eliminate elbow drop altogether.He suggested a shorter bridge 8-9" and a shorter 4inch follow through.At times I hit some great fluid shots with no elbow drop and other times in feels really mechanical as I try to incorporate his teaching into my game.I have allways heard that the only thing that should move in the stroke is your forearm from the elbow joint down.Does this apply to pool?

I observed some of the strokes of the great snooker stars such as Hendry,Higgins,Davis and O'Sullivan and it seems in snooker that they really follow the no elbow drop things religiously, although I see Ronnie O use it on some power shots.They(hendry,Higgins,Davis) also seem to accentuate the pause-set-finish freeze thing that my instructor is trying to teach and when thet do it,it's quite deliberate and very noticable.

Right now I'm watching some old tapes of the 2000 WPC and the first two matches included Efren Reyes and Corey Deule, equally as good in their sport as the above afformentioned snooker stars in their sport.I payed particuliar attention to see if they dropped their elbows during the follow through.Although they had no elbow drop on several shots, on many others they did employ elbow drop.Sometinmes it seemed like 50-50 on the shots the TV showed, however, the TV usually focuses in on the cue ball-object-ball-pocket, rather than a more arial view where you can see what the players cueing arm is doing.My point being is that elbow drop is sometime times (I don't know the percentage) seen in pool,however, rarely ever seen in snooker.

Furthermore (as I mentioned on an earlier post PSFF) the pool players don't seem to accentuate the PSFF as much as the snooker players,however, many do seem to use it, although the freeze portion of the cycle is somewhat brief and in many cases the set and pause a lot more abreviated as compared to snooker.

This all brings me back to my instructor:

He says that many great pool players have overcome stroke flaws with great talent and many,many,many hours on the pool table in the abscense of instruction.
He says if they would have learned the proper way there would have been a lot less elbow drop.

He's trying to help me become more consistent( mechanical??) with SPFF and eliminate elbow drop as much as possible.I'm just wondering if being that mechanical is the way to go for 9 ball.It seems(eg.TO ME) that a lot of the instructors are trying to teach a snooker style and employ it for 9 ball.Tim White of the Billiard Sanctuary advises using a snooker bridge and snooker stance and trys to model himself after Allison Fisher.(I've seen his dvd's)He even uses this sling that hangs down from the ceiling and hooks up under your elbow joint that makes it impossible to drop your elbow during the stroke. He calls this practice device, "The Stroke Perfector."(Has anyone used it. Did it help your stroke?)

http://www.billiardsanctuary.com/

Fisher and Corr have used their snooker styles with great success on the womens tour,however, although Steve Davis has had some success, pool style players (Philipino's etc) seem to dominate.

Which brings me back to my instructor:

I wanted to be more structered(disciplined) in my preshot routine and stroke and I'm very open to SPFF.Basically I want to be more consistent.

Has anyone out there employed this teaching (SPFF,no elbow drop) and seen their game improve dramatically over time?

Is my teacher right by saying that many of these pool players have learned to compensate with swing flaws (elbow drop etc) and would have been better than they are now, had they got proper instruction from the very begginning?

Is there a fine line between getting good mechanics and blending feel and can you get too mechanical and run everything pertaining to 9 ball?

With all the varities and power shots required in nine ball,can it be played successfully if you eliminate elbow drop?

Any answers to the above questions or other observations or comments, much appreciated.I'm totally open-minded and willing to learn what he want's to teach,however,I want to move on with my lessons in confidence. RJ
 
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Jones,

Without exception, there isn't a single great player I can think of that has taken lessons from start to finish. The fact is, a significant portion of your growth will happen on your own and unfortunately, there's little avoiding it. The only way you can expedite the learning process is allowing time at the table and having a coach to point you in the right direction but in the end, you need to spend time by yourself.

Drop the elbow? I really wish I could tell you what to do here. Frankly, I don't look at my elbow when I play. I do know a bunch of people that do. They're all beginners and I don't find that to be a coincidence. Pool requires a relaxed focus and if your mind is thinking about elbow-placement, I can assure you, its not thinking about making the ball.

Now, that isn't to say that your instructor isn't right. Far from it. Your instructor is taking the end result and using it as a basis for structuring a lesson. The fact is, you need to start from the beginning of your routine, not the end. What is it that you do that allows your elbow to drop? Is your hand high-up on the cue? Does your arm have excessive movement? Are you moving your head as you hit the ball?

You may be doing all of these or none at all. It really doesn't matter. Even if you addressed each and every element individually, you're still going to have a problem putting it together. What you need to see is a visual example. The next time you take a lesson with this instructor, ask him to shoot a few balls so you can paint a mental picture. You can also accomplish the same goal by purchasing a pool DVD (though you can't ask any questions, then). Amazingly, I find that students who have an example to copy will correct problems they're not even aware of. I know when I'm falling into a slump, I'll immediately dig up a DVD of Mika Immonen. Although I never thought my mechanics ever looked like his, something about his game reminds me of what to do.
 
oh this is going to be a good thread..............

attention, attention shoppers............

would drivermaker, zims rack, bob jewett, fred agnir, captain jr, please report to aile 3. :D

thank you

VAP
 
vapoolplayer said:
attention, attention shoppers............

would drivermaker, zims rack, bob jewett, fred agnir, captain jr, please report to aile 3. :D

VAP
Click to expand...


Not me.....the obsessive compulsive non-elbow droppers can preach all they want, I'm going straight to the cash register on this one just as I always have with the robots.
 
RJ,
You haven't been taking lessons long enough for the stroke to feel natural. Yes, it feels "mechanical" at first, but once you have practiced it, it becomes very natural. I have a hard time demonstrating an elbow drop to students because it is not natural to me.
What your instructor is trying to accomplish is to give you a consistant, repeatable stroke. When you do the same thing the same way every time, you get the same result. That gives you consistency...which is what you want.
It took me a while after I learned the SPFF stroke to see the results....but I did see the results!!!! It doesn't happen in days or even weeks sometimes, but it will improve your game.
You do have to practice it....not during matches or games....real practice!!!
Stroke drills!!!
Your game will reflect the things you do in practice. If you try to practice it in a game, it will not work.
Stick with the plan. You won't be sorry.
Steve
 
I think there's been enough preaching about "elbow drop", no need (for me) to pound it in (on this thread) anymore.

I will vouch for the Stroke Perfector by Tim White. It actually doesn't hang under your arm pit, but under your elbow. This is to give you a feel of what your arm feels like when not dropping. It works well! I use The Stroketrainer both personally and with students. Another thing you can use instead of Stroke Perfector, is a stack of pennies. Have a friend place a stack, 4-5, of pennies on your elbow when you get into the set position (before beginning your stroke). Once you finish the stroke, see if the pennies are still there, if they fell off, you dropped your elbow.
The BSACA DVD's are phenominal instructional videos!

Zim
 
ok........we got DM, Zim, and myself here.........just need fred and bob to make this interesting.......LOL

VAP
 
If you watch Phil Capelle's "Play Your Best 9-Ball" he analyzes a match between Johnny Archer and Efren. During the match Efren puts a super huge draw stroke on a shot in which he DEFINITELY drops his elbow, and Capelle seems to endorse that practice, at least for power stroke shots.

However, I think if a lot of people copied everything Efren did, then there would be a lot of people that couldn't make a ball :) Personally, I am an "elbow dropper".

kollegedave



recoveryjones said:
Right now I'm watching some old tapes of the 2000 WPC and the first two matches included Efren Reyes and Corey Deule, equally as good in their sport as the above afformentioned snooker stars in their sport.I payed particuliar attention to see if they dropped their elbows during the follow through.Although they had no elbow drop on several shots, on many others they did employ elbow drop.Sometinmes it seemed like 50-50 on the shots the TV showed, however, the TV usually focuses in on the cue ball-object-ball-pocket, rather than a more arial view where you can see what the players cueing arm is doing.
Click to expand...
 
i think randyg said it best when he said that there are different kinds of elbow drops, and one of them is acceptable.

VAP
 
Zims Rack said:
I think there's been enough preaching about "elbow drop", no need (for me) to pound it in (on this thread) anymore.

I will vouch for the Stroke Perfector by Tim White. It actually doesn't hang under your arm pit, but under your elbow. This is to give you a feel of what your arm feels like when not dropping. It works well! I use The Stroketrainer both personally and with students. Another thing you can use instead of Stroke Perfector, is a stack of pennies. Have a friend place a stack, 4-5, of pennies on your elbow when you get into the set position (before beginning your stroke). Once you finish the stroke, see if the pennies are still there, if they fell off, you dropped your elbow.
The BSACA DVD's are phenominal instructional videos!

Zim
Click to expand...

Hi ZIm, Thanks for correcting me on the location of the stroke perfector as I knew it was under the elbow,however, for some reason I put under the armpit.
Furthermore I agree with you that those BSACA dvd's are amongst the very best out there in terms of production,presentation,quality and information.I don't disagree with what Tim is saying, I just see a lot more snooker players using his style than pool players.Like snooker players his pause and set are much more accentuated while in p-ool, those aspects seems to be much more abreviated.He advocates a much longer freeze than I'm seeing from most in pool.RJ

ps. I'm in the process of making a homemade stroke perfector.
:D
 
vapoolplayer said:
oh this is going to be a good thread..............

attention, attention shoppers............

would drivermaker, zims rack, bob jewett, fred agnir, captain jr, please report to aile 3. :D

thank you

VAP
Click to expand...
LOL....What VA, me open up a can of worms.RJ :D
 
recoveryjones said:
LOL....What VA, me open up a can of worms.RJ :D
Click to expand...

how about this one............

is it acceptable to drop the elbow, using backhand english, all the while using one of hal's systems?????

that'll get em goin

VAP
 
vapoolplayer said:
how about this one............

is it acceptable to drop the elbow, using backhand english, all the while using one of hal's systems?????

that'll get em goin

VAP
Click to expand...


Ladies and Gentleman...we have just found our new shit starter to replace Gremlin...welcome ca-ca pants :D
 
vapoolplayer said:
oh this is going to be a good thread..............

attention, attention shoppers............

would drivermaker, zims rack, bob jewett, fred agnir, captain jr, please report to aile 3. :D

thank you

VAP
Click to expand...

I'll be happy to help out here as much as I can.

CaptainJR said:
I had a big compliment this past Saturday night. I was playing a ring game with a couple other old timers. I was playing pretty good (up a little). Then I played a long draw shot. Object (7-ball) ball in the kitchen about 1/4 inch off the side rail. About 1 and 1/2 diamonds away from the corner. Cue ball on the other end of the table about 1 inch off the same rail and about 1 and 1/2 diamonds away from the opposite corner. 9-ball on the bottom rail. Made the 7 and drew back to the 2nd diamond for the semi easy cut on the 9 to the corner. When I walked over to get my break stick Bob said, "You have the best controlled long draw shot I've ever seen". Since I know Bob has been around pool for a long time. This was the best compliment I've ever had.

Anyway Bruce, there is my qualifying statement and I'm going to throw in a little here just in case this is the kind of shot your talking about. (Rather than cue ball 1 foot from the object ball and needing to draw back 6 inches.)

All the information I've seen here is great so I'll try not to repeat what others have said.

The above shot can be rattled and missed, and is rattle and missed rather regularly by a lot of players. It is because they hit it quite a bit harder than necessary thinking they need to, to get the draw they want. They use like a 'soft break' speed. I've seen it tried almost using 'hard break speed'. So how hard do you hit it? I'm going to call it 'break stroking speed'. You see players taking practice strokes when getting ready to break. Even when they are using a 'soft break', the actual hitting stoke is much harder than there practice stokes. Hope you can understand this. Has been difficult to write and describe. It is this 'break stroking speed' that should not be exceeded. On the above shot I was firm but not as hard as the 'break stroking speed' I'm talking about. Using this break stoking speed I can sit a ball deep in the corner pocket at the foot of the table, cue ball in the kitchen and draw back the length of the table. That would be the rare occasion when you need that much draw on a long shot, so generally I use much less speed than this. It is firm, but NOT hard.

What I'm trying to emphasize here is you just don't have to hit it as hard as you probably think you do, if you use the other good advice in the thread.

Secondly, I think generally players have the tip to low on long draw shots. When your hitting this hard, if you put the tip to low, your taking a chance on sending the cue ball airborne. So just incase your stoke isn't what you were hoping for....I use at most a half tip low, but try to stay at a quarter tip low. This allows you to get that controlled draw that just creeps back at you. Almost looks like you had hit a soft follow shot from the other direction. And it can creep a good distance. Just get it going and it can go a while on 860.

I said I'd try not to repeat what others have said, but I think I'll throw in my two key thoughts on this kind of shot. Since I can only think of one thing at a time, the two keys have to be at separate times. One in setup and one while hitting. In my setup I make absolutely sure that when my tip is close to the cue ball, my back arm forearm is straight up and down. In the hitting stroke I make sure to follow through completely.
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This is a quote of my response to the thread that Bruce posted asking help with his draw shot. I tried explain as best I could and stay within the confines of what is commonly agreed on.

But now that you've ask, I'll get a little more into the controversial aspect of my long draw shot.

I think smoothness of stoke is a big factor. I'm not talking about speed (Fred). I know you want me to slow down. You can still be smooth even when stoking fast.
How do you get a smooth stoke? Since I'm talking about a long draw shot, I'm referring to a fairly firm stoke. The more firm the stoke, the more difficult it is to make it smooth. You all know what a smooth stoke feels like. How can I say that. Anyone here that doesn't think at least there practice stokes are smooth? Of course not. We all wish that we could make our striking stoke as smooth as our practice strokes. I think one reason our practice stoke is smoother is because it is decelerating before it gets to the cue ball. It has to or you would hit the cue ball on your practice stroke. So on my long draw shots that I feel require an extra smooth stoke I try to make it feel like I'm decelerating a little at impact. (Which incidentally helps me make sure I'm not hitting to hard, as mentioned in the quote above.) So what does this have to do with if the elbow drops or not. I think dropping the elbow helps me make sure to be smooth through the cue ball and since you can move your hand more quickly than your elbow, I think dropping the elbow helps me have that very slight deceleration at impact consequently keeping the hitting stoke smooth like a practice stroke.
 
CaptainJR said:
I'll be happy to help out here as much as I can.




This is a quote of my response to the thread that Bruce posted asking help with his draw shot. I tried explain as best I could and stay within the confines of what is commonly agreed on.

But now that you've ask, I'll get a little more into the controversial aspect of my long draw shot.

I think smoothness of stoke is a big factor. I'm not talking about speed (Fred). I know you want me to slow down. You can still be smooth even when stoking fast.
How do you get a smooth stoke? Since I'm talking about a long draw shot, I'm referring to a fairly firm stoke. The more firm the stoke, the more difficult it is to make it smooth. You all know what a smooth stoke feels like. How can I say that. Anyone here that doesn't think at least there practice stokes are smooth? Of course not. We all wish that we could make our striking stoke as smooth as our practice strokes. I think one reason our practice stoke is smoother is because it is decelerating before it gets to the cue ball. It has to or you would hit the cue ball on your practice stroke. So on my long draw shots that I feel require an extra smooth stoke I try to make it feel like I'm decelerating a little at impact. (Which incidentally helps me make sure I'm not hitting to hard, as mentioned in the quote above.) So what does this have to do with if the elbow drops or not. I think dropping the elbow helps me make sure to be smooth through the cue ball and since you can move your hand more quickly than your elbow, I think dropping the elbow helps me have that very slight deceleration at impact consequently keeping the hitting stoke smooth like a practice stroke.
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CaptainJR, "decelerate through the cue ball" You are so full of shit! Everyone knows that you want a slight acceleration through the cue ball. I think I might have read somewhere, to be smooth you want no acceleration or deceleration at impact, but I'm positive I've never read or heard anyone say they actually try to decelerate through the shot. Absurd!

As for dropping the elbow. This is done to minimize vertical movement of the cue tip. If your elbow doesn't drop the back hand comes up thus the cue tip moves down. That is why it is so important that your back forearm is vertical when addressing the ball. Then for the split second your in contact with the ball the cue tip is not moving vertically. If you make sure of your forearm position is vertical at impact then the elbow dropping afterward makes no difference at all. So if your using elbow drop to help decelerate through the ball, that would mean that your elbow is moving before contact with the cue ball. Good players actually laugh behind the back of a person that is stoking and there elbow is moving before contact with the cue ball. Setting all that aside, if you drop your elbow, as the elbow drops it comes forward a little which would actually accelerate the impact, not decelerate. That has to be one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever seen!







P.S. Fred, don't pay any attention to all this. I'm still working on what we talked about.
P.P.S. What I'm really curious to see is if I get replies to the first post before they even read this one. Especially if I can get this one posted right after the other without anyone else's reply in-between.
P.P.P.S. Fred, does my elbow drop? Naa, never mind, I don't want to know.
 
One man's opinion

I'm fairly new here so I haven't been all analyzed over the elbow drop...but I can tell you from personal experience and careful observation. Pool is like many other sports in that it requires that we have an array of shots available to accomplish different objectives. If a player (not to mention a teacher) has not discovered the subtleties of the elbow drop then it is my opinion that he go to the table and discover for himself, first hand (no theory here), the positive and negative merits...both are surely present. Much will depend on a players style and form but it should be obvious that it can be used effectively. The simple fact is there are many styles and forms that have been proven effective notwithstanding opinion. At the end of the day, no one form or style can be touted as "the answer" because the question changes as constantly as the winner.
It is my opinion the elbow drop is quite important as the moving fulcrum of the the compound pendulum, however I understand there are shortcomings. If a player's form is not pretty well tuned the elbow drop will set up all kinds of errors that will render its use difficult, at best. For a short discussion on the positive aspects of the elbow drop see my website (hittcues.com) and look in the Transcendental Pool section. References are dotted throughout the short articles. It is a work-in-progress for those of you who tend to concentrate on the empty portion of glass.
In the long term development of your stroke, I believe it is be important to have a command of several styles. I find visualizations helpful...but I recognize that not everyone will. I have been through the phases of irrational belief that there is one answer to these kinds of questions. As a player matures in his game, he (or she) will find what works for him and matches his goals. He (or she) will separate the signal from the noise...you be the judge.
 
Elbow dropping...

I personally think each countryman plays differently. For example, the Asian countries, Korea especially is into the elbow drop. When Max Eberle was helping me out the last time he was in Korea, he was totally against me dropping the elbow in order to work on my basic stroke. For the past year or so I have been playing continually against the top Korean pros and most seem to drop the elbow. I believe it is due to the position of their feet and stance. I totally adopted the Korean pros way of shooting because this is where I live now. I believe fluidity is the key and after hearing so many different tips and ideas to improve my game, I decided to take everything into consideration and do what is most comfortable. And not making drastic changes to my style but rather make it a step by step process.

I also firmly believe that all pros play differently but there are basic "things" that each top pro has in common. Those "things" are the most important factor in becoming your best.

Sometimes thinking too much will kill your game...
 
Rempe advocates dropping the elbow for power shots in one of his "Pool School" tapes. Many of the pros drop their elbows according to several of the previous posts. Given the above, what's the issue? I understand that beginning players need to develop a repeatable stroke to become successful but after they get past the novice level of play, they probably should start dropping their elbow for power shots.
 
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