final backswing to tip-cb contact..how long should it be?

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First time i witnessed a decent pause at the end of the back stroke was watching Mizerak in Burlington IA. 1975??

Kick myself for not copying his process.
Of course I had no money to pay for advice plus instructors were like nowhere to be found.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cisero was a personal friend of mine. We hung out a lot, so I know his stroke very well. I just don't understand where this fits into the original post. Are you just stating the obvious --- that there are exceptions? Who said there weren't exceptions? Are you going to list an exception to discredit what Mark Wilson said? If not, then what's the point in listing exceptions here?
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cisero was a personal friend of mine. We hung out a lot, so I know his stroke very well. I just don't understand where this fits into the original post. Are you just stating the obvious --- that there are exceptions? Who said there weren't exceptions? Are you going to list an exception to discredit what Mark Wilson said? If not, then what's the point in listing exceptions here?

bill mentioned cisero, reminded me of the vid- that's all.
if I were attempting to discredit mark, I would post examples of pros with shorter pauses- that's way more common, isn't it?
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
bill mentioned cisero, reminded me of the vid- that's all.
if I were attempting to discredit mark, I would post examples of pros with shorter pauses- that's way more common, isn't it?
Let's review: Bill wrote in response to Mark's quote: "If life were this simple..." and then went on to point out Cisero as an example. You responded by saying, "No doubt."

When I asked Bill what he meant by his response to the original post, he wrote "Nothing." Brilliant response. Did he feel the need to report the obvious, that there are always exceptions? He's right. It was a nothing post.

So here's my point: Why focus on the exceptions? What Bill is saying and what you're agreeing to is that Mark's quote is simplistic because there are exceptions. Wow. What an earth-shattering revelation --- there are exceptions. But does that really make Mark's quote simplistic?

Next time, know what you're agreeing to.
 
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evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Let's review: Bill wrote in response to Mark's quote: "If life were this simple..." and then went on to point out Cisero as an example. You responded by saying, "No doubt."

When I asked Bill what he meant by his response to the original post, he wrote "Nothing." Brilliant response. Did he feel the need to report the obvious, that there are always exceptions? He's right. It was a nothing post.

So here's my point: Why focus on the exceptions? What Bill is saying and what you're agreeing to is that Mark's quote is simplistic because there are exceptions. Wow. What an earth-shattering revelation --- there are exceptions. But does that really make Mark's quote simplistic?

Next time, know what you're agreeing to.

fran, respectfully, you're the one focusing on the exceptions, not me.
you're reading way too much into a few stray posts, I said so in my last reply
you've created some narrative of what you think I mean, instead of taking my word for it
what's the point of asking somebody a question, if you don't care what their answer is?
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
fran, respectfully, you're the one focusing on the exceptions, not me.
you're reading way too much into a few stray posts, I said so in my last reply
you've created some narrative of what you think I mean, instead of taking my word for it
what's the point of asking somebody a question, if you don't care what their answer is?
This makes no sense at all.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One may take a long, slow, smooth backstroke, and pause as long as they like before transitioning to the forward stroke, in my opinion.
You guys are unreal. Maybe you can spend more than 3 seconds when you read the original post, and at least make an ATTEMPT to understand what that person is trying to say.

Mark's point is NOT that you must fall within a certain range of time to shoot. His point is that there was some research done --- ACTUAL RESEARCH --- and it was found that the stroke process of the pros is significantly longer than the stroke process of amateurs. Obviously, we don't know from that quote who the pros and amateurs were or how many, but even if it's just a sample of players, it does run true to form, at least in my experience as an instructor who has taught thousands of people over 30 years --- that AMATEURS DO TEND TO RUSH THEIR STROKE PROCESS.

Isn't that what's important here? Can't you see the forest through the trees?
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I clocked his at 1.8 seconds.

Didn't Mosconi once say Cicero was the best, but he wasn't allowed to compete?
Cisero was certainly one of the best but would never have said that Cisero was the best. Jimmy Wall, another strong black player, was the first black man to be invited to play in a pro event. Due to his job as a stage director for NBC, he was not going to be able to make it. So he recommended Cisero to be invited instead. They invited Cisero and he became the first black man to play in a men's pro event.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Cisero was certainly one of the best but would never have said that Cisero was the best. Jimmy Wall, another strong black player, was the first black man to be invited to play in a proevent. Due to his job as a stage director for NBC, he was not going to be able to make it. So he recommended Cisero to be invited instead. They invited Cisero and he became the first black man to play in a men's pro event.

Yes...that was 1963. Mosconi wrote in his autobiography that Cisero Murphy was the first black player of championship quality.

Cisero was one of the best players in the world. And, when blacks were finally permitted to play in pro events, he proved it, winning both a national and world championship title.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes...that was 1963. Mosconi wrote in his autobiography that Cisero Murphy was the first black player of championship quality.

Cisero was one of the best players in the world. And, when blacks were finally permitted to play in pro events, he proved it, winning both a national and world championship title.
Yes, and I was lucky to call him my friend. Cisero was a really good person and extremely knowledgeable. He helped me a lot with position play.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
You guys are unreal. Maybe you can spend more than 3 seconds when you read the original post, and at least make an ATTEMPT to understand what that person is trying to say.

Mark's point is NOT that you must fall within a certain range of time to shoot. His point is that there was some research done --- ACTUAL RESEARCH --- and it was found that the stroke process of the pros is significantly longer than the stroke process of amateurs. Obviously, we don't know from that quote who the pros and amateurs were or how many, but even if it's just a sample of players, it does run true to form, at least in my experience as an instructor who has taught thousands of people over 30 years --- that AMATEURS DO TEND TO RUSH THEIR STROKE PROCESS.

Isn't that what's important here? Can't you see the forest through the trees?
Late to reply, but I just saw your comment.

It occurred to me that the forward and back stroke of the amateur could be the same as the pro's, while the pro pauses longer at the end of the backswing, therefore . . . my earlier comment.

Of course, I agree with the point of the OP also. I have a student right now where we're working on a more paced, smooth backstroke AND forward stroke.
 

stumpie71

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree and disagree 😊😊 .

Definitely agree that the lower down the skill ladder you go the more rushed a players stroke is.

However after watching and timing (frame by frame at times) 22 of the top 24 pool players were under 1.2 seconds most between .85-1.05.
All but one snooker player was between 1.2-1.8 and 3 of 6 ladies.

Neil Robertson is imo the most consistent and best example if striving to teach someone to stroke at that pace.

What stood out to me was the rhythm of the stroke not the amount of time. The backwards and forward stroke speed were inverse of each other relative to the pace of the shot. The backwards stroke for the players I watched was extremely consistent regardless of how forceful the shot would be.

IMO finding the proper rhythm should be the goal than the amount of time it takes. Killing 2 birds one stone.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
I agree and disagree 😊😊 .

Definitely agree that the lower down the skill ladder you go the more rushed a players stroke is.

However after watching and timing (frame by frame at times) 22 of the top 24 pool players were under 1.2 seconds most between .85-1.05.
All but one snooker player was between 1.2-1.8 and 3 of 6 ladies.

Neil Robertson is imo the most consistent and best example if striving to teach someone to stroke at that pace.

What stood out to me was the rhythm of the stroke not the amount of time. The backwards and forward stroke speed were inverse of each other relative to the pace of the shot. The backwards stroke for the players I watched was extremely consistent regardless of how forceful the shot would be.

IMO finding the proper rhythm should be the goal than the amount of time it takes. Killing 2 birds one stone.
Yes, I gave more details on another thread today, but "no one hits the ball with the back stroke". No need to rush it.
 

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
"Research has discovered that less experienced and skilled players use between .4-.8 seconds from beginning the final backswing until the cue tip impacts the cue ball, professional players use 1.2-1.8 seconds for the same movement."

agree or ?

source: https://playgreatpool.com/timing-rhythm-precision-striking/
100%


Demonstrated it to some students who asked about pause- : started to video immediatley 16 players- And the results showed it clearly- and also in the time range Mark also shown up with. 5 out of 16 ( all A to A+ and higher) They all had been about 1,5 to 1,8- -- the other "lower skilled" girls and boys have been way faster.
 
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